[jdonn]

I have often played 1NT - 3M as showing shortness with three cards in the other major and 4-5 either way in the minors. It gets very good results in my opinion, but it occured to me that I've never had a thorough discussion of followup auctions, beyond the fact that if opener bids 4m it's still game forcing and responder can't pass. Has anyone? Any ideas?

1NT - 3♠
4♣ - ?
4♦ - ?
4♥ - ?
4♠ is ?
4NT exists?

1NT - 3♥
3♠ - ?
Etc.

And if opener bids 3NT and responder wants to bid on?

Nice for you if you have general partnership principles to fall back on, but I'm more interested if anyone has given the specific auction much thought before.

[awm]

While I don't play exactly this method, I use something vaguely similar. My general rules:

If opener ever bids the short suit, it shows a good hand with nothing wasted. This is the best possible hand for slam. If opener bids the short suit after having suggested a 3NT contract then this shows a max with basically one wasted card (i.e. one honor other than the ace).

If opener ever bypasses bidding the short suit, it indicates wasted values there.

If responder bids the short suit, it asks opener "please bid slam if you have nothing wasted here."

Other bids are natural. In many cases this is part of a "scramble" auction; usually these bids are not cuebids.

My observation has been that counting points and determining wastage/no wastage actually works quite well in slam auctions on this sort of hand. Basically the point ranges are 27 for slam, excluding the KQJ of the short suit, and 31 for grand slam (again excluding KQJ of the short suit).

[pclayton]

I prefer this 3 major as GF, not some 3145 8 count trying to find a magic 3N or run to 4m.

I believe 3N by opener should show a lot of duplication and a minimum. 4N can be used as a maximum and no particular great fit.

After 3M - 4 of a minor by opener sets trump. Responder is expected to cue. I don't know what 4M is by opener, but you could probably come up with something clever like key card or agreement of a minor.

Keri has some great ideas, but 3x is one below the stiff. Opener's bidding the singleton shows that he has 13 (in a 12-14 setting) working points (Ace of suit, and outside stuff).

[Gerben42]

Anyway 3NT is "I got two stoppers, let's play this".
4♣♦ simply sets trumps
4 in partner's 3-card major is a suggestion to play this.

Leaves: Bidding partner's singleton. This shows no wasted values here and a good minor fit.

One "extra" sequence is 1N - 3♥ - 3♠, but I like responder to show his LONG major on this auction so this would be "bid partner's singleton".

4NT after such a bid should be "Aces and spaces" and a great fit.

[hrothgar]

Here's what I normally play

(Let's assume that responder bid 3♠)

Responder has sufficient values that he is willing to force to game. He wasn't willing to bid 3N directly because he is worried about a the bid major.

If opener bids 3N, all is fine and well and responder can pass.

4♣ denies a Spade stopper, expresses a preference for clubs over Diamonds, and promise a low ODR. Soft values, quacks, that sort of stuff. 4♣ is passable.

4♦ shows the same hand, but expresses a prefence for Diamonds

4♥ is to play

4♠ shows a maximum strength high ODR hand with nothing wasted in Spades

4N denies a Spade stop, promises a High ODR hand, and no preference between the minors

5♣ denies a Spades stop, promises a high ODR hand, and prefers Clubs to Diamonds

5♦ denies a Spade stop, promises a high ODR hand, and prefers Diamonds to Clubs

[jdonn]

I'm not getting the sort of responses I wanted. Any agreements beginning with responder's rebid? Say opener rebids 4♣, is 4♦ a cuebid or does it show 1354? Is 4NT keycard? Is 4♠ just a generic slam invite? And supposing opener bids 3NT and responder wants to pull, does 4 of either major have a useful meaning? etc etc

Phil you seriously want opener to bid 4NT over 3M without that being some sort of artificial bid promising a fit? I don't see how that interpretation is possible.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Jan 25 2008, 01:05 PM, said:

I'm not getting the sort of responses I wanted. Any agreements beginning with responder's rebid? Say opener rebids 4♣, is 4♦ a cuebid or does it show 1354? Is 4NT keycard? Is 4♠ just a generic slam invite? And supposing opener bids 3NT and responder wants to pull, does 4 of either major have a useful meaning? etc etc

Phil you seriously want opener to bid 4NT over 3M without that being some sort of artificial bid promising a fit? I don't see how that interpretation is possible.

Yeah, not the best idea I've had. Responder can move on with extras over 3N.

[NickToll]

In my usual partnership 1NT - 3x is a slam try with a singleton or void in the bid suit and three or more cards in the other three suits. So, for example, we bid 1NT - 3♣ with 6331 and a six-card major. We accept to stop in 3NT, even with an eight-card fit, when the short suit is well stopped.

Opener's rebids:
- 3NT: double stopper, usually ending the bidding; sometimes responder will correct to 4♥♠ with a six-card suit;
- jump to game: five-card suit and some wasted values, but unsuited for 3NT;
- "raise" of the short suit: 1NT - 3♣♦ - 4♣♦ shows both four-card majors and denies slam interest (wasted values), whereas 1NT - 3♥♠ - 4♥♠ shows both four-card minors and, again, no slam interest;
- suit: four or more cards, does not promise nor deny slam interest (no wasted values).

Now:
- bidding responder's short suit (by either player) agrees partner's last bid suit and is encouraging: opener implies no wasted values, responder suggests a maximum hand (about five losers opposite a weak notrump);
- 3NT says "tell me more": 4 of a suit bypassing 3NT shows five cards.

[hrothgar]

jdonn, on Jan 26 2008, 12:05 AM, said:

I'm not getting the sort of responses I wanted. Any agreements beginning with responder's rebid? Say opener rebids 4♣, is 4♦ a cuebid or does it show 1354? Is 4NT keycard? Is 4♠ just a generic slam invite? And supposing opener bids 3NT and responder wants to pull, does 4 of either major have a useful meaning? etc etc

Phil you seriously want opener to bid 4NT over 3M without that being some sort of artificial bid promising a fit? I don't see how that interpretation is possible.

Hi Josh

I suspect the reason that you're not getting much discussion about follow ups by the 3M bidder is that most players haven't spent much time studying this topic. Case in point: I like science, but I've never bothered to give much thought to potential continuations. Normally, if I am planning a minor suit slam invite, I'll start with a 2♠ response. (More importantly, when I'm playing in partnerships that are willing to invest serious effort in system, I don't play 3M as anti-Lemming. I use it as a GF splinter with 4441 or 5440 shape)

Regardless, I agree with your basic line of thinking... I don't see any reason why you shouldn't multiplex certain strong hand types into the 3M response. However, its unclear to me what type of hands this should be...

For example, consider the following:

A 3♥ response shows EITHER an anti Lemming type hand with 3 Spades OR a slam seeking hand with long clubs.

A 3♠ response shows either an anti-Lemming hand with 3 Hearts or a slam seeking hand with long Diamonds.

Suppose that the auction started

1N - 3♥
4♦ - 4♠

would set Clubs as trump and confirm Heart and Spade controls (recall that partner's 4♦ bid denies a Heart control)

I don't claim that this treatment is good or even reasonable (I just pulled it out of my ass). My main point is that these sequences are pretty much wide open... I think that you'd need to spend a lot of time and effort trying to figure out how best to use the bidding space...

[jdonn]

Hmm, I hadn't been considering including more hands in the bids, merely how to best show the ones that are already there. Agreed this is perhaps an under-studied auction considering that the treatment is not uncommon. Or maybe it's just because the convention is useful enough that opener can all but place the contract immediately most of the time anyway, with responder making quantitative type raises if he has extras.

[kenrexford]

This might surprise you, but this seems like an auction where the "what next?" question is rather simple and natural. At least it is for me, and I also use this tool.

1NT-P-3♥ (3145/3154)

Opener can bid 3NT. Case closed, unless Responder had a monster, in which case he bid again (4min = identifies the 5-card minor; 4♥ = 3055)

Opener can bid 3♠ to agree spades. Serious 3NT, LTTC, cuebids, etc.

Opener can pick a minor (4♣/4♦). If he does so, 4♥ is RKCB, 4♠ is Exclusion RKCB, the other minor is a cue, and 4NT is LTTC.

Opener can sign off at 5-minor with junk, or 4♠.

Opener's 4♥ is a POWER club preference; 4NT a POWER diamond preference.

Simple.

It is more complicated if 1345/3154. Here, 4♣ is a weak relay; 4♦ for diamonds, 4♥ for hearts (and power), 4♠ for clubs (and power), 4NT RKCB for hearts (and POWER).

BTW -- if you bid the fragment, then 3♠ by Opener after 3♥ can agree hearts, with little loss, but you gain a 4♥ LTTC for spades when Responder has spades (and bid the minors naturally). This concern of how to bid next is rarely considered when deciding whether to bid the fragment or bid the stiff. I think that bidding the stiff sounds better but that bidding the fragment actually is better.





OK -- maybe my definitions of "simple" and "natural" need re-considered.

[the hog]

Try the following:

1NT: 3C - 3S = 3 suited GF, singleton in suit bid and the following shapes:
• 3C = 4351 or 3451 (may be 4360 or 3460)
• 3D = 4351 or 3451 (may be 4306 or 3406)
• 3H = 3154 or 3145
• 3S = 1354 or 1345

Over these, 3NT by opener is to play and 4 of a promised minor denies any interest in 3NT or 4 of a major. Over 4m, responder to bid “step” with a hand that has no slam potential, otherwise give “scroll” response.

Should opener bid a major over 3C/D, responder to bid 3S or 3NT with the other major, bid “step” with a hand that has no slam potential, otherwise give “scroll” responses.

Scroll
This occurs after support has been shown via a splinter bid and takes precedence over all other system bid.

“Step” after the splinter asks about partner’s shape and is RKCB. Responses:
• “step” shows a singleton in the splinter suit * *
• “Step + 1” shows a void and 0 or 3 cards
• “step + 2” shows a void and 1 or 4 key card etc up the line

** Note: In sequences where the hand is not limited, the first “step” in response to a Scroll ask shows a minimum hand and bypassing it shows a good hand. In similar auctions where the length of the shortage is already known, we go straight to RKCB responses via step 1 minimum.

[kenrexford]

I'm assuming that 3♣ is Puppet Stayman and 3♦ is 5-5 in the majors, invitational or better?

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Jan 25 2008, 07:41 PM, said:

I'm assuming that 3♣ is Puppet Stayman and 3♦ is 5-5 in the majors, invitational or better?

No and no They are different things with different partners, but I think in all cases at least one is 5-5 minors game forcing (although there are some 0355 and 3055 hands I would respond 3♥ or 3♠ instead.) I have mixed feelings about Puppet Stayman after 1NT and usually don't play it but sometimes do.

I like your suggestions Ken. They are, as these auctions go, relatively simple and intuitive but cover the basic needs.

[mike777]

jdonn, on Jan 25 2008, 12:38 PM, said:

I have often played 1NT - 3M as showing shortness with three cards in the other major and 4-5 either way in the minors. It gets very good results in my opinion, but it occured to me that I've never had a thorough discussion of followup auctions, beyond the fact that if opener bids 4m it's still game forcing and responder can't pass. Has anyone? Any ideas?

1NT - 3♠
4♣ - ?
4♦ - ?
4♥ - ?
4♠ is ?
4NT exists?

1NT - 3♥
3♠ - ?
Etc.

And if opener bids 3NT and responder wants to bid on?

Nice for you if you have general partnership principles to fall back on, but I'm more interested if anyone has given the specific auction much thought before.

I did not read the other posts so this may be duplicated elsewhere.

This is what I was taught.

This assumes 14-16 nt opener, please adjust if your range is different.

You bid your fragment.

1nt=3h or 3s=fragment. Strength for 3nt, no 4 card major, the other major is extremely weak, typical 3H hand is x....Kxx....Qxxxx...AQTx.

3nt=to play ...obviously you need the unbid major to be well stopped.
4c=unsuitable for 3nt, clubs are at least as long as your diamonds not forcing but pard will often raise

4d= unsuitable for 3nt, diamonds are better than clubs, not forcing but pard will raise often.

[Cascade]

We play something different but similar.

The differences are:

1. we do not bid the major that we have shortness in

2. we will have a four-card major

In reponse opener bids:

3NT without a fit for the major and with a stopper OR even with a fit for the major if we have three stoppers in the short suit AQJx etc

4minor as a scramble trying to find a fit without a stopper - since this is a scramble this defines the continuation 1NT 3Maj; 4♣ 4♦ as a further scramble with long dimaonds

cue-bid partner's short suit with a fit for the major and the nuts

Responder then:

passes 3NT unless holding significant extra values or possibly distribution - void and six-card suit

bids a new suit without a guaranteed fit

raises opener's suit. Opener can then bid slam with the nuts (an immediate cue-bid promised a fit in the major)

cue-bids the singleton with extra values and serious slam interest

there is also a cue-bid available in the major 1NT 3Maj; 4♣ 4Maj - this would show a control in this suit so the cue in the singleton would deny a control in the other major

On puppet Stayman ...

we don't play puppet and we frequently include a five-card major in our 1NT openings. However on normal Stayman auctions we have a gadget to find a 5-3 major suit fit. After 1NT 2♣; and any rebid by opener we bid 3♦ to ask opener for a five-card or three-card major. We will Stayman with 5=3 or 3=5 in the majors and game forcing values. Here are the auctions:

1NT 2♣
2♦ 3♦ - Have you got a three-card major (responses are natural)

1NT 2♣
2♥ 3♦ - Do you have five hearts or three (or more) spades

1NT 2♣
2♠ 3♦ - Do you have five spades or three hearts - bid up-the-line

[Codo]

jdonn, on Jan 26 2008, 02:38 AM, said:

Any ideas?

1NT - 3♠
4♣ - ?
4♦ - ?
4♥ - ?
4♠ is ?
4NT exists?

1NT - 3♥
3♠ - ?
Etc.

And if opener bids 3NT and responder wants to bid on?

Nice for you if you have general partnership principles to fall back on, but I'm more interested if anyone has given the specific auction much thought before.

I play that 4 m is "always" RCKB for that suit with the lowest answer shows minimum or no interest. So this is what it is here too.
The major or 3 NT is to play.
If we have the possiblity to bid 3 or 4 Spade, 4 Spade is weaker.
4 NT does not exist.
If I am really strong I would use the cuebid to show a real good hand in support of a major. But this never happened.

[Apollo81]

I know the following doesn't really answer the question you posed since you asked about responder's rebid.

This is my structure when I am playing with a non-regular partner and have at least a few minutes to fill out a card.

1NT-
2♠: transfer to clubs
3♣: transfer to diamonds
3♦: 13(45) or similar (0355, 03(64))
3♥: 31(45) or similar
3♠: (12)55
6-5 minors generally transfers to one minor and bids the other.

1NT-3red
1st step: no wastage (bottom of range+ in working HCP)
4m: NF

We usually don't get this far, but were we to discuss, after 1NT-3red-3NT:
4m: the (1345) hand
4-fragment: the (0355) hand, NF
4NT: the (0355) hand, forcing
4-void: the (0346) hand

[Impact]

I use 3M as fragment rather than shortage (yes there are arguments both ways) and continuations for last 20 years:-

3NT= T (as responder could have relayed...)
4M= T
4m= strong and encouraging
4NT= you pick a minor with no preference usually 3-3 with less than perfecto
5m= wastage and clear preference
4OM= typically 44m suggesting play in shorter minor ie 44 fit to enable pitch...

regards

[firmit]

The_Hog, on Jan 26 2008, 02:15 AM, said:

Try the following:

1NT: 3C - 3S = 3 suited GF, singleton in suit bid and the following shapes:
• 3C = 4351 or 3451 (may be 4360 or 3460)
• 3D = 4351 or 3451 (may be 4306 or 3406)
• 3H = 3154 or 3145
• 3S = 1354 or 1345

I like this structure. I have a feeling it is also (gaining) popular(-ity) among certain circles in Norway. Do you have a good write-up with example hands on this - or a link? Does it have a name?