[flytoox]

Vul.: both
Dealer: North

Sitting at south,you hold:
S: KX
H: KT8X
D: AQXX
C: AXX





W N E S
1D P 1H
P 2H P 2S
P 3S P 4D(?)
P 4H P ?

Question: How many Hearts pd SHOULD have? Do you pass or carry on?

[Free]

Very weird bidding, from 2♠ (game trial? what do you need long ♠s for? i'd try 3♣ or 3♦ here) it goes wrong imo... Pass

Partner should have 4♥s imo, because otherwise he'd bid NT after 2♠, and since he's minimal (the 2♥ bid) he won't have 5...

[flytoox]

Free, on Feb 27 2004, 01:05 PM, said:

Very weird bidding, from 2♠ (game trial? what do you need long ♠s for? i'd try 3♣ or 3♦ here) it goes wrong imo... Pass

Partner should have 4♥s imo, because otherwise he'd bid NT after 2♠, and since he's minimal (the 2♥ bid) he won't have 5...

With pick-up pd, I am not sure 3D is clearly forcing, so i am not risking it. 3C is an alternative clearly.

I dont think pd must have 4 hearts. with

S: XXXX
H: KQX
D: KTXX
C: AX

then you shold raise 1H to 2H. And after 2S, he should raise to 3S too.

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Feb 27 2004, 06:30 AM, said:

Vul.: both
Dealer: North

Sitting at south,you hold:
♠: KX
♥: KT8X
♦: AQXX
♣: AXX

W  N  E  S
     1D  P  1H
P  2H  P  2S
P  3S  P  4D(?)
P  4H  P  ?

Question: How many Hearts pd SHOULD have? Do you pass or carry on?

1♦ - 1♥
2♥ - 2♠
3♠ -

2♥ shows 3 or 4 ♥ and minimum values. So think something like 12-15 points (counting distribution)

2♠ is game try or better, and 3♠ accepts the game try. First, question is it logical that your partner has 4♠ and 3♥? It depends upon your agreement, but with 4♠ and 3♥ your partner would have bid 1♠ over 1♥ on any hand he would have enough to accept game try, so the answer is that your partner is not showing 4♠ and 3♥. So if your partner has 4♠ he has 4♥ as well. So this 3♠ is NOT an attempt to get out of ♥ and into ♠s.

So what is 3♠ and why didn't north just bid 4♥ if he was accepting the game try? There are two possible answers. First, he could have a maximum hcp hand with only 3 card support for ♥ but good ♠ cards and is suggesting 3NT as an alternative. The second, he could be cue-bidding the ♠ACE with a four card ♥ fit in case your 2♠ was slam try instead of game try.

With ♦AQ the way to figure this out is to bid 3NT over 3♠. If your partner was looking for 3NT he will pass, comfortable in how clever he was to steer you into 3NT from the right side. If he takes another bid over 3NT, particularily if he now bids 4♣, you will know he first cue-bid the ♠A and is now showing ♣K. Here your would now be making a serious slam try on your own and continuing bidding.

The problem on your auction is after your 4♦ you and your partner are in a fuzzy zone. Clearly your 4♦ showed slam interest, but if North thinks his 3♠ was a slam try and in fact he is looking at 4♥ and minimum "acceptance" values, what is he to do but correct to 4♥ (having told his story). On the other hand if you bid on, what if he was trying to get into 3 NT and you are in a 4-3 ♥ fit? Then 4♥ is high enough.

So I suggest a 3NT bid with your hand. If partner passes, he has 3♥, if he bids again, I will try very hard to bid slam (especially if he cue-bids now 4♣.

Ben

[WGF_Flame]

P got to have 4 hearts, yes with that sample hand with KQx of hearts and 4 small spades u can find resson to play this naturally, but thats a bad idea, u need to have principles, defaults, not to check every sequence if u want a stable partnership. if p decided to skip 4 spades and show 3 hearts thats his problem, he cant then regret it. 3♠ imo is a cue bid not a natural bids, which show 4 hearts and some just abit extra. imo u can afford to make another try with 4♠.

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Feb 27 2004, 02:27 PM, said:

[
On the other hand if you bid on, what if he was trying to get into 3 NT and you are in a 4-3 ♥ fit? Then 4♥ is high enough.

So I suggest a 3NT bid with your hand. If partner passes, he has 3♥, if he bids again, I will try very hard to bid slam (especially if he cue-bids now 4♣.

Ben

I did think about 3N. The problem is that if pd is 4342 and leaves me in 3N, it may be in jeopardy while 4-3 fit 4H can be easier.

However, I am not sure if 3S means he accept the game try. With:
S: AJXX
H: AXXX
D: KXX
C: JX

Pd probably will bid same as in the auction here, raising 1h to 2h, and raising 2s to 3s, but doesnot show extra. Or am I wrong?

After my 4D, and pd's 4H, I am somewhat stuck.

[flytoox]

This hand also raise another issue. When I make a forcing game try(or slam try)here, is 2s or 3c better? Another issue, is 3D 100% forcing?

fly

[EricK]

flytoox, on Feb 27 2004, 04:24 PM, said:

inquiry, on Feb 27 2004, 02:27 PM, said:

[
On the other hand if you bid on, what if he was trying to get into 3 NT and you are in a 4-3 ♥ fit? Then 4♥ is high enough.

So I suggest a 3NT bid with your hand. If partner passes, he has 3♥, if he bids again, I will try very hard to bid slam (especially if he cue-bids now 4♣.

Ben

I did think about 3N. The problem is that if pd is 4342 and leaves me in 3N, it may be in jeopardy while 4-3 fit 4H can be easier.

However, I am not sure if 3S means he accept the game try. With:
S: AJXX
H: AXXX
D: KXX
C: JX

Pd probably will bid same as in the auction here, raising 1h to 2h, and raising 2s to 3s, but doesnot show extra. Or am I wrong?

After my 4D, and pd's 4H, I am somewhat stuck.

If 2♠ does not promise 4 (and it clearly doesn't in your opinion) then bidding 3♠ must accept the game try, as it forces you to the 4 level in your only known fit.

If you are playing a system in which opener can raise to 2♥ with 3 card support (and I think that is the right approach), then you might like to consider using the cheapest bid by responder to show INV+ values and only 4 in the major.

There is a discussion of it in Robson/Segal book.

Eric

[WGF_Flame]

flytoox, on Feb 27 2004, 11:27 AM, said:

This hand also raise another issue. When I make a forcing game try(or slam try)here, is 2s or 3c better? Another issue, is 3D 100% forcing?

fly

2sp , 3cl and also 3d are not game forcing or slam tries, they r game tries.
about the 3d i prefer to play it forcing, even tho u can find hands where ud like to stop there, again im not looking for things like that.

[luke warm]

[quote name='inquiry' date='Feb 27 2004, 04:27 PM'][quote name='flytoox' date='Feb 27 2004, 06:30 AM']Vul.: both
Dealer: North

Sitting at south,you hold:
[sp]: KX
[he]: KT8X
[di]: AQXX
[cl]: AXX
~~snip~~
Ben[/QUOTE]


this is one reason i really like the kokish help/short suit game tries... after 2[he], 2[sp] is the game try... 2NT would then show 4 spades (or an honor or two with 3 spades), and any other bid shows a short suit.. so here, 3[sp] over 2[sp] shows short spades

the way most people play, the raise to 2[he] can be made with decent 3 card support

[mishovnbg]

[quote name='luke warm' date='Feb 29 2004, 05:06 PM'] [quote name='inquiry' date='Feb 27 2004, 04:27 PM'][quote name='flytoox' date='Feb 27 2004, 06:30 AM']Vul.: both
Dealer: North

Sitting at south,you hold:
[sp]: KX
[he]: KT8X
[di]: AQXX
[cl]: AXX
~~snip~~
Ben[/QUOTE]


this is one reason i really like the kokish help/short suit game tries... after 2[he], 2[sp] is the game try... 2NT would then show 4 spades (or an honor or two with 3 spades), and any other bid shows a short suit.. so here, 3[sp] over 2[sp] shows short spades

the way most people play, the raise to 2[he] can be made with decent 3 card support [/quote]
[spoiler]------------------------------------------------------------------------[/spoiler]Hi lukewarm!
[spoiler]------[/spoiler]Game tries like Kokish/Romex/SMART... works perfect for you, but also helps to opponents for defense. The modern style of bidding, like I posted several times in forum, is to not give additional information, untill it is not sure partner need it. Because the games must be played on low percentage, they are very vulnerable to lead and it is better to bid them directly, unlike slams. When your partner can raise with 3 cards too, with some hands (nat a bad way in my opinion), things are even worse. Your parner can respond with 4 small cards in major and even 3 major on "fit" can be bad contract. There are several solutions and Kantar's one is my favourite, because of my aggressive style of bidding. Here it is:

1[di]-1[he], 2[he]-?
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]2[sp]: 5+[he], inv+, deny splinter
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]2NT: 4[he], inv, NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[cl]: 4[he]-5+[cl], inv, NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[di]: 4[he]-4+[di], inv, NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[he]: 5+[he], not inv, preempt
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3NT: 4[he], NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[sp]/4[cl]: Splinter
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]4[di]: 4[he]-4+[di], slam try
[spoiler]------[/spoiler]Note: With Ben we play any such 4 minor bid as RKCB and if 2 fits then 2 key K + 2 trump Q (answer for highest first, in this case about [he] Q)
[spoiler]------------------------------------------------------------------[/spoiler]Misho

[flytoox]

[quote name='mishovnbg' date='Mar 1 2004, 10:50 AM'] [quote name='luke warm' date='Feb 29 2004, 05:06 PM'] [quote name='inquiry' date='Feb 27 2004, 04:27 PM'][quote name='flytoox' date='Feb 27 2004, 06:30 AM']Vul.: both
Dealer: North

Sitting at south,you hold:
[sp]: KX
[he]: KT8X
[di]: AQXX
[cl]: AXX
~~snip~~
Ben[/QUOTE]


this is one reason i really like the kokish help/short suit game tries... after 2[he], 2[sp] is the game try... 2NT would then show 4 spades (or an honor or two with 3 spades), and any other bid shows a short suit.. so here, 3[sp] over 2[sp] shows short spades

the way most people play, the raise to 2[he] can be made with decent 3 card support [/QUOTE]
[spoiler]------------------------------------------------------------------------[/spoiler]Hi lukewarm!
[spoiler]------[/spoiler]Game tries like Kokish/Romex/SMART... works perfect for you, but also helps to opponents for defense. The modern style of bidding, like I posted several times in forum, is to not give additional information, untill it is not sure partner need it. Because the games must be played on low percentage, they are very vulnerable to lead and it is better to bid them directly, unlike slams. When your partner can raise with 3 cards too, with some hands (nat a bad way in my opinion), things are even worse. Your parner can respond with 4 small cards in major and even 3 major on "fit" can be bad contract. There are several solutions and Kantar's one is my favourite, because of my aggressive style of bidding. Here it is:

1[di]-1[he], 2[he]-?
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]2[sp]: 5+[he], inv+, deny splinter
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]2NT: 4[he], inv, NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[cl]: 4[he]-5+[cl], inv, NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[di]: 4[he]-4+[di], inv, NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[he]: 5+[he], not inv, preempt
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3NT: 4[he], NF
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]3[sp]/4[cl]: Splinter
[spoiler]------------------------------[/spoiler]4[di]: 4[he]-4+[di], slam try
[spoiler]------[/spoiler]Note: With Ben we play any such 4 minor bid as RKCB and if 2 fits then 2 key K + 2 trump Q (answer for highest first, in this case about [he] Q)
[spoiler]------------------------------------------------------------------[/spoiler]Misho [/quote]
Hi, Misho,
What do you bid with the hand then? Seems no bid is available given more of bid are invitational only and NF.
Thx
fly

[inquiry]

[quote name='flytoox' date='Mar 1 2004, 08:36 AM'] [quote name='mishovnbg' date='Mar 1 2004, 10:50 AM'] Hi, Misho,
What do you bid with the hand then? Seems no bid is available given more of bid are invitational only and NF.
Thx
fly [/quote]
He will bid 4[di], showing a [di] fit, confirming the [he] fit and slam try. This also establishes that if RKCB is used, it would be six card RKCB (two suit fit) counting [he] and [di]Kings plus all the aces.

You could play this direct 4[di] as RKCB or as optional RKBC (I don't like optional so much or even as RKCB on this particular auction, I define 4 of minor as RKCB where you are already in GF situation, and over 4[di] you really have strain worries)... if it is optional RKCB, then opener rebids 4[he] with no slam interest of is own, or starting with 4[sp] as first step showing key cards out of six. 4[he] has to be kept for yuck hands.....

Maybe it is by far best on this scheme if the 4[di] jump just suggest possibility of slam or game two different strains: [he] or [di]s.

Let's imagine some opener hands on this auction and see how it might go (these will all be very minimum hands, because 2H shows a minimum response. With a healthy 2H rebid hand, bidding slam would be piece of cake.)

Sitting at south,you hold:
[sp]: KX
[he]: KT8X
[di]: AQXX
[cl]: AXX

W N E S
1[di] P 1[he]
P 2[he] P 4[di]
P (?)

A healthy minimum with nothing wasted in the side suits like, and opener can at least theorize possible slam, with this hand I would either bid 4[sp] as cue-bid or 4NT as two suit RKCB. This hand is golden...
[sp] Axxx
[he] Axxx
[di] Kxxx
[cl] x

Give a similar hand but with 3 [he]s, and less values and 5[di] seems a clear bid. The three little [cl] are not too exciting.
...
[sp] Ax
[he] Axx
[di] Kxxxx
[cl] xxx

Give me some hand not as rich in controls, and I would just bid 4[he].

[sp] QJx
[he] Axxx
[di] Kxxx
[cl] Qx

And with some yummy 14 hcp hands, I just bid 6[he].. using RKCB if I just have too feel safe about it.
[sp] AQx
[he] AJxx
[di] Kxx
[cl] xx

Ben

[spwdo]

hi,


i see a lot of "imo" what does it mean?

[inquiry]

spwdo, on Mar 1 2004, 10:41 AM, said:

hi,


i see a lot of "imo" what does it mean?

imo = in my opinion
imho = in my humble opinion....

imo shows, I think, you are more sure your opinion is right.... :-)

[flytoox]

[quote name='inquiry' date='Mar 1 2004, 03:13 PM'] [quote name='flytoox' date='Mar 1 2004, 08:36 AM'] [quote name='mishovnbg' date='Mar 1 2004, 10:50 AM'] Hi, Misho,
What do you bid with the hand then? Seems no bid is available given more of bid are invitational only and NF.
Thx
fly [/QUOTE]
He will bid 4[di], showing a [di] fit, confirming the [he] fit and slam try. This also establishes that if RKCB is used, it would be six card RKCB (two suit fit) counting [he] and [di]Kings plus all the aces.

You could play this direct 4[di] as RKCB or as optional RKBC (I don't like optional so much or even as RKCB on this particular auction, I define 4 of minor as RKCB where you are already in GF situation, and over 4[di] you really have strain worries)... if it is optional RKCB, then opener rebids 4[he] with no slam interest of is own, or starting with 4[sp] as first step showing key cards out of six. 4[he] has to be kept for yuck hands.....

Maybe it is by far best on this scheme if the 4[di] jump just suggest possibility of slam or game two different strains: [he] or [di]s.

Let's imagine some opener hands on this auction and see how it might go (these will all be very minimum hands, because 2H shows a minimum response. With a healthy 2H rebid hand, bidding slam would be piece of cake.)

Sitting at south,you hold:
[sp]: KX
[he]: KT8X
[di]: AQXX
[cl]: AXX

W N E S
1[di] P 1[he]
P 2[he] P 4[di]
P (?)

A healthy minimum with nothing wasted in the side suits like, and opener can at least theorize possible slam, with this hand I would either bid 4[sp] as cue-bid or 4NT as two suit RKCB. This hand is golden...
[sp] Axxx
[he] Axxx
[di] Kxxx
[cl] x

Give a similar hand but with 3 [he]s, and less values and 5[di] seems a clear bid. The three little [cl] are not too exciting.
...
[sp] Ax
[he] Axx
[di] Kxxxx
[cl] xxx

Give me some hand not as rich in controls, and I would just bid 4[he].

[sp] QJx
[he] Axxx
[di] Kxxx
[cl] Qx

And with some yummy 14 hcp hands, I just bid 6[he].. using RKCB if I just have too feel safe about it.
[sp] AQx
[he] AJxx
[di] Kxx
[cl] xx

Ben [/quote]
The major concern is if pd has 4heart raise. when you bid 4d, you are assuming pd raised with 4 card, in that case i think i can bid it in many ways.

One of my friend said in this sequence, 1D-1H-2H-3D, 3D is forcing. Then everything will be easy.

I looked at Mike lawrence's workbook on 2/1 mentioned this sequence should be forcing.

[mishovnbg]

inquiry, on Mar 1 2004, 05:13 PM, said:

Maybe it is by far best on this scheme if the 4♦ jump just suggest possibility of slam or game  two different strains: ♥ or ♦s.

Ben

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

Spoiler

------

In my opinoin 4♦ as invit for 5♦ is worse, because lead to unsafe 4♦ contract before it is really need. On 3♦ in Kantar scheme, if opener have good hand for 5♦, he can simple raise to 4♦ too.

Spoiler

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

[inquiry]

[quote name='flytoox' date='Mar 1 2004, 10:56 AM'] [quote name='inquiry' date='Mar 1 2004, 03:13 PM'] The major concern is if pd has 4heart raise. when you bid 4d, you are assuming pd raised with 4 card, in that case i think i can bid it in many ways.

One of my friend said in this sequence, 1D-1H-2H-3D, 3D is forcing. Then everything will be easy.

I looked at Mike lawrence's workbook on 2/1 mentioned this sequence should be forcing. [/quote]
Playing 3[di] as forcing on 1[di]-1[he]; 2[he] - 3[di] is certainly the standard treatment. In fact I play that bid as forcing with everyone but Misho. However, I find playing it as non-forcing is a very nice treatment. Let's view the various reasonings..

If 1[di]-1[he]; 2[he], the 2[he] raise ALWAYS promises four card support, then playing 3[di] as non-forcing would be silly. After all you have a 8 card major fit.

If 1[di]-1[he]; 2[he] always promised 3 card support, then playing 3[di] as forcing would be silly, since you may not have an adequate trump suit, especially if responder bid 1[he] on a four card suit headed by the 8 (8xxxx).

But you have a real world problem, where 1[di]-1[he]; 2[he] can be 4 or 3 card support, what is the best practicle approach. The best way to play the raise with three card support, is that with "better hcp" hands is to show the raise slowly (bid 1NT or something else first, then raise if you get a chance).

That is,
1[di]-1[he]; 2[he] with three card support will generally be weaker than an auction like...1[di]-1[he]; 1NT - 2[di]; 2[he] which should be a better hand than 2[he] right away. If you save your opener raise with three card support for the weaker hands, then 3[di] should be choice of contracts rather than forcing... but while nf, the double fit may sway opener to bid game on some minimums with 4 card support. Also, with 4 card support for major, opener is not passing 3[di] anyway.

I think it is nice to always have a little extra in reserve when you show delayed support for partners major. Misho and I play xyz convention... so this would be a frequent auction...1[di]-1[he]; 1NT-2[cl]; 2[di]-2[he]/2NT. Here 2[cl] is a game try. Responder knows that if he catches his partner with 3 card [he] support, it will include "extras" since no direct raise to 2[he]. So he can rebid 2NT with five hearts, save in the knowledge that anytime opener has 3[he]'s he will 1) accept the game try, and 2) will bid 3[he] on the way to 3NT. So the 2[he] rebid over 2[di] can be saved for suit-oriented hands.

And finally, Misho and I push the limits of what might considered an opening 1m playing our 2/1 system. That is, we open some very light hands, certainly lighter than what Mike Lawerence would recommend. Therefore, we need exit strategies when we are truely light. So I will have to admit, for us, having 3[di] as non-forcing (and even the tradtional 3[cl] which others would play as nmf as non-forcing) seems to be an improvement.

Ben

[inquiry]

mishovnbg, on Mar 1 2004, 11:22 AM, said:

inquiry, on Mar 1 2004, 05:13 PM, said:

Maybe it is by far best on this scheme if the 4♦ jump just suggest possibility of slam or game  two different strains: ♥ or ♦s.

Ben

Spoiler

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Ben!

Spoiler

------

In my opinoin 4♦ as invit for 5♦ is worse, because lead to unsafe 4♦ contract before it is really need. On 3♦ in Kantar scheme, if opener have good hand for 5♦, he can simple raise to 4♦ too.

Spoiler

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Misho

Hi Misho, I haven't lost my mind... i know 4♦ is forcing. So I wasn't suggesting 4♦ as invite game or slam...it is game forcing, but it informs opener that we can play game and/or slam in either of the two red suits... depending upon his hand...

Ben

[the hog]

"imo = in my opinion
imho = in my humble opinion....

imo shows, I think, you are more sure your opinion is right.... :-) "

imho imo shows you think you are more sure your opinion is right. I think.....