[goobers]

How many people actually look where you pull your cards from?

Anyway, I always hold my hand under the table, fully sorted.

[jchiu]

Clocking bad or mediocre opponents is generally more useful than trusting that they did the right thing.

[foo]

Jlall, on Feb 12 2008, 10:23 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 8 2008, 11:53 PM, said:

Something I have never understood. Why is so much made of how much concentration people waste playing lots of methods (that, arguably, otherwise gain for the player) but nothing made of the concentration wasted by not sorting your cards, which gains nothing?

It doesn't gain nothing.

1) Your opponents cannot tell anything by where you pull your cards.
2) You can play your spot cards more randomly rather than robotically so good opps cannot exploit your natural patterns of play.

I agree completely with justin here.

Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards."

[rogerclee]

foo, on Mar 14 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards."

They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."?

[foo]

rogerclee, on Mar 14 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

foo, on Mar 14 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards."

They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."?

No, I asked them and a few others about sorting their cards as in the topic of this thread...

[rogerclee]

foo, on Mar 14 2008, 08:51 PM, said:

rogerclee, on Mar 14 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

foo, on Mar 14 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards."

They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."?

No, I asked them and a few others about sorting their cards as in the topic of this thread...

Thank you for sharing the secret to playing like Hamman and Sontag. As usual, your post was enlightening, and I am a better player now than before I read your post.

[foo]

rogerclee, on Mar 14 2008, 10:53 PM, said:

foo, on Mar 14 2008, 08:51 PM, said:

rogerclee, on Mar 14 2008, 10:42 PM, said:

foo, on Mar 14 2008, 08:14 PM, said:

Some of the best advice I got many moons ago from folks like Hamman and Sontag was "learn to play w/o having to sort your cards."

They went up to you and said, "foo, there's really something you should do to take your bridge to the next level--be able to play without sorting your cards."?

No, I asked them and a few others about sorting their cards as in the topic of this thread...

Thank you for sharing the secret to playing like Hamman and Sontag. As usual, your post was enlightening, and I am a better player now than before I read your post.

?? Huh and WTF ?? This sounds like sarcasm? What did I say or do to elicit such sarcasm?

I NEVER made such a claim or came anywhere close to such a statement with regards to "secrets".

I simply pointed out that some very good WC players had told me that sorting one's cards can put one at a disadvantage, as justin also pointed out; and that they had also said being able to play w/o sorting one's cards was an advantage.

(I believe their point was that superior visualization, which is required to play w/o sorting one's cards, =is= one of the secrets to playing better.)

[cherdano]

Actually, I have also heard (from a top player) about how Hamman has perfected randomizing his spot plays, partly by not sorting his hand. (In any case he doesn't believe in signaling much.)

[Rossoneri]

Not too sure how you would classify mine....

I usually sort by suits first, then maybe bid with a few cards not in rank order, but the order freak in me eventually ends up getting the cards sorted in rank order. Thing is, I don't sort it SHCD, I just make it such that it's alternating black and red suits and I leave it that way.

[Rossoneri]

foo, on Mar 15 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

I simply pointed out that some very good WC players had told me that sorting one's cards can put one at a disadvantage, as justin also pointed out; and that they had also said being able to play w/o sorting one's cards was an advantage.

(I believe their point was that superior visualization, which is required to play w/o sorting one's cards, =is= one of the secrets to playing better.)

I don't quite get this, it would seem more intuitively correct to spend less energy sorting as compared to the amount of brain power needed to visualize.

My habit is that I memorise the key features of my hand (like hcp, distribution, impt spot cards etc.) so that I don't really look at my hand during bidding. Would you call this visualisation?

[foo]

Rossoneri, on Mar 15 2008, 10:52 AM, said:

foo, on Mar 15 2008, 02:10 PM, said:

I simply pointed out that some very good WC players had told me that sorting one's cards can put one at a disadvantage, as justin also pointed out; and that they had also said being able to play w/o sorting one's cards was an advantage.

(I believe their point was that superior visualization, which is required to play w/o sorting one's cards, =is= one of the secrets to playing better.)

I don't quite get this, it would seem more intuitively correct to spend less energy sorting as compared to the amount of brain power needed to visualize.

My habit is that I memorise the key features of my hand (like hcp, distribution, impt spot cards etc.) so that I don't really look at my hand during bidding. Would you call this visualisation?

IMHO when one is just beginning as a player, one has so much to learn that anything that simplifies things w/o teaching bad habits is worth doing.

In that context, issues like trying to play w/o sorting ones cards is of lower priority than everything else a beginner has on their plate.

Once the more basic stuff is automatic, then it would seem to make sense to put more effort into being able to better approximate double dummy play ATT. and that is exactly where visualization skills come in.

If one can visualize one's own hand well enough to not have to look at it more than once ATT, then one can in theory more accurately imagine the other hands ATT as well.

So yes, however you do it, if you know your own hand well enough to not have to refer to it after you have placed it in your mind, you are praticing the kind of visualization I believe these experts were telling me was worth developing.