BBO Discussion Forums: Who's To Blame - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Who's To Blame Missed slam

Poll: Who's To Blame (23 member(s) have cast votes)

Who's To Blame

  1. 100% North (3 votes [13.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.04%

  2. Mostly North (7 votes [30.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.43%

  3. 50/50 (2 votes [8.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.70%

  4. Mostly South (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. 100% South (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  6. Nobody really to blame (11 votes [47.83%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.83%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   mikegill 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 296
  • Joined: 2006-May-26

Posted 2008-January-31, 15:42

Scoring: MP


1 - X - 3 - 4
5 - 5 - all pass

You are playing ELC, so don't assign blame to North for the X, please.
0

#2 User is offline   655321 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,502
  • Joined: 2007-December-22

Posted 2008-January-31, 15:58

I might be missing something, but I don't understand what ELC has to do with doubling or not doubling on the North hand.

I would have overcalled 1, which on the actual hand allows South to bid 4, possibly we could bid a slam now.

On the actual auction, North must have a reason to bid 5/5 - i.e. he does not have a 4414 13 count. It is reasonable IMO for South to bid a 6th heart now.
That's impossible. No one can give more than one hundred percent. By definition that is the most anyone can give.
0

#3 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2008-January-31, 15:58

If I had to blame anyone, it is North. North has much better than a typical takeout double of 1 and his partner jumped to game in hearts over 3. South cannot bid a slam on his own. And a cue bid by South over 3 is out of the question, as it would ask North to pick a major.

This is truly a very tough problem. North is the only one who has a chance to get it right, so I assign most of the blame to North. But I suspect that I would have duplicated his actions.

I don't see why South should hang his partner for competing to the five level over 5. The 5 over 5 bid does not give South enough reason to bid again.

I agree that ELC has nothing to do with this problem. North has a clear double over 1. :)
0

#4 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-January-31, 15:59

looks fine to me. stiff opp void is sick
0

#5 User is offline   jdonn 

  • - - T98765432 AQT8
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,085
  • Joined: 2005-June-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, NV

Posted 2008-January-31, 16:16

I don't think I would have reached this slam after starting with double. There is a chance after a 1 overcall since south can splinter or bid 4 over 3 or something, but I'd be lying if I said I was confident I'd bid it then either.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
0

#6 User is offline   Vilgan 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 359
  • Joined: 2005-December-04
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Interests:Hiking, MTG, Go, Pacific NW.

Posted 2008-January-31, 16:49

Bidding seems fine up until the 5 bid. If you want to get to slam on this hand (imo) you have to pass/pull to 5 to show some sort of slam interest. Not sure if that is the correct bid, but starting with a double that seems the only route there.
0

#7 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,459
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2008-January-31, 17:02

Hi,

the opponents.

I think South can make a stronger move with 4D,
but making a cue bid, when the trump suit is not
clear is always dangerous.
And if 4D leads to a catastroph, I am the first to
blame South for making such a problematic bid.

South would bid 4H without the Ace of hearts, and
thats why North cant bid more, but 5H is certainly
no invitation to bid on.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#8 User is offline   benlessard 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,452
  • Joined: 2006-January-07
  • Location:Montreal Canada
  • Interests:All games. i really mean all of them.

Posted 2008-January-31, 17:34

I consider 4H to be an underbid.

I would jump to 4H with

Qxx
KTxx
x
Axxxx

So the south hand is 1 trick + 1 control stronger. Its clearly deserve a 4D bid (with a correction to 5C over 4S to show H+C slammish. Of course if you play that 4D 100% guarranted both maj you are stucked.

I would have overcall 1H but i have no problem with X. But after the X an a proper 4D its hard to miss the slam

Ps does any1 play 4C here as forcing ? Im wondering because the 4C as natural non-forcing rarely come-up and isnt super useful.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
0

#9 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,068
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2008-January-31, 18:15

If anything North could have bid 6 instead of 5 but I don't really blame anyone. After opps open at the 1-level, reaching slam is not our primary objective.
... I am not at all keen on arriving at the 4 level with no idea of where our fit(s) might be. --- Zelandakh
0

#10 User is offline   pclayton 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,151
  • Joined: 2003-June-11
  • Location:Southern California

Posted 2008-January-31, 21:50

No charge.
"Phil" on BBO
0

#11 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-January-31, 23:36

btw, I think your X is 100 % correct, I would never risk playing 1H when cold for 4S etc. This hand is way too good to overcall 1H and you have perfect Xing shape, what is the problem?
0

#12 User is offline   skjaeran 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,726
  • Joined: 2006-June-05
  • Location:Oslo, Norway
  • Interests:Bridge, sports, Sci-fi, fantasy

Posted 2008-February-01, 00:25

Jlall, on Feb 1 2008, 06:36 AM, said:

btw, I think your X is 100 % correct, I would never risk playing 1H when cold for 4S etc. This hand is way too good to overcall 1H and you have perfect Xing shape, what is the problem?

I prefer to overcall. But it's borderline. Don't think there's a problem with either action - it's just down to personal preferences.
Kind regards,
Harald
0

#13 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,999
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2008-February-01, 00:55

OK but what do you bid over 2? 2 doesn't really promise this much, does it? 3 should show a one suited hearts hand shouldn't it?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

#14 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2008-February-01, 00:59

If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction. I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart.
Chris Gibson
0

#15 User is offline   jdonn 

  • - - T98765432 AQT8
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,085
  • Joined: 2005-June-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas, NV

Posted 2008-February-01, 01:09

CSGibson, on Feb 1 2008, 01:59 AM, said:

If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction. I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart.

This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
0

#16 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-February-01, 01:32

skaeran, on Feb 1 2008, 01:25 AM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 1 2008, 06:36 AM, said:

btw, I think your X is 100 % correct, I would never risk playing 1H when cold for 4S etc. This hand is way too good to overcall 1H and you have perfect Xing shape, what is the problem?

I prefer to overcall. But it's borderline. Don't think there's a problem with either action - it's just down to personal preferences.

I just don't get it, do you think you are overbidding if you double first and later bid 2H? It seems to me like you have perfect shape and values for Xing, you are not concerned with any followups ever, and can much more easily get to non-heart games by Xing immediately, you can get to slam easier by Xing, and you even rate to stop lower if you start with a double than 1H because if you overcall 1H and the opps bid you are going to keep bidding forever. I mean imagine it goes 1D 1H 3D p p X p 3H. Would you pass? Maybe, but you could be missing a game since you would probably be reopening X on AQxx AKxxx x Qxx as well. If you bid you could just be ridiculously high. By overcalling 1H you made it tough to STOP low.

And the risk of playing in 1H opposite Qxxxx x Qxxx xxx or something is very real as well. I'm all for overcalling heavy on a hand like Qx KQJxx KQxx AJ where you have a lot of HCP but Xing creates a lot of problems for you, but here I don't see why doubling will create any problems at all.
0

#17 Guest_Jlall_*

  • Group: Guests

Posted 2008-February-01, 01:33

jdonn, on Feb 1 2008, 02:09 AM, said:

CSGibson, on Feb 1 2008, 01:59 AM, said:

If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction.  I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart.

This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.

agree totally
0

#18 User is offline   CSGibson 

  • Tubthumper
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,835
  • Joined: 2007-July-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, OR, USA
  • Interests:Bridge, pool, financial crime. New experiences, new people.

Posted 2008-February-01, 02:05

Jlall, on Jan 31 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

jdonn, on Feb 1 2008, 02:09 AM, said:

CSGibson, on Feb 1 2008, 01:59 AM, said:

If I had to blame anyone, it would be North for not initiating a pass-and-pull sequence, since this is clearly a forcing pass auction.  I would be playing in 5 hearts, though, and be kicking myself and writing it up as a problem for posters to tear me apart.

This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.

agree totally

Since I'm disagreeing with two people who both have a better understanding of bridge, then I am willing to concede that I am probably wrong. Here's why I believe this is a forcing pass auction, however:

1) although it was not stated in the problem, 1-(X) -3 is a preemptive raise for most people, done on very light values typically NV

2) Given that the opponents are preempting, my partner is NOT preempting by bidding 4. He is bidding to make.

3) If my partner is bidding game to make, then we are committed to either doubling them or bidding on when they bid over our (making) game.

I am, of course, perfectly willing to listen to where I've got this wrong should anyone be so kind as to point it out.
Chris Gibson
0

#19 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2008-February-01, 02:09

Jlall, on Feb 1 2008, 04:33 PM, said:

This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.
agree totally

So one simply forcing pass rule: "We freely bid game and they defend" does not apply here because....?
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#20 User is offline   gwnn 

  • Csaba the Hutt
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,999
  • Joined: 2006-June-16
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:bye

Posted 2008-February-01, 02:46

Codo, on Feb 1 2008, 10:09 AM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 1 2008, 04:33 PM, said:

This is clearly NOT a forcing pass auction, as far as I'm concerned.
agree totally

So one simply forcing pass rule: "We freely bid game and they defend" does not apply here because....?

... we bid game on distribution (trump length in particular), not brute force.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users