[Codo]

[quote name='Jlall' date='Jan 27 2008, 09:30 PM'] Why do you want to bid 3 [di] in a gameforcing auction with
KJxxx xx Qx xxxx ? [/QUOTE]
Yes this is a 100 % normal bid. I know the most misunderstood auctions by weak players are jumpshift auctions; they are very complicated, but bidding 3S with this is horrible. [/quote]
My priority order after 1 [di] 1 [sp] 3 [cl] had been:

1. 3 Heart 4.sf asking for stopper or spade support. Wow exactly what I need 100 points
2. 3 Spade: I show my five card suit 20 points
3. 4 Club: I have a fit 5 points
4. pass 1 point.
5. 3 Diamond: I don´t show my club fit, my 5. spade, nor do I ask for pds hand.
-1000 points

Sorry, your concept is too deep for me. What is the sense in not bidding 3 Heart?

[jdonn]

Codo, on Jan 28 2008, 03:50 AM, said:

Sorry, your concept is too deep for me. What is the sense in not bidding 3 Heart?

It lets a 3♥ bid be natural in case you are 5-5. It leaves partner room to bid 3♥ himself. You think if partner has spade support or hearts stopped you won't find out over 3♦?

Codo sorry but you speak too strongly in this case, 3♦ is a normal bid. I remember a thread a few months ago after a jump shift where EVERYONE knew responder should make a preference to opener's first suit, but you insisted he should bid 3NT, didn't like anyone's reasons for why that wasn't true, and like this time just kept on insisting and insisting instead of taking the chance to realize why so many good players would think the other way. It's just clear you don't know what 3♦ here means.

[firmit]

jdonn, on Jan 28 2008, 09:18 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 27 2008, 08:33 PM, said:

I think a normal auction has the bidding starting 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦. North might take another call, but thats dubious.

I disagree, 3♦ should show 6-4. South's third bid is a matter of style, either 2♥ or 2♠.

2♠ should show 3 card support here, no? But as long as responder only has shown 4, I would not show my AJ support just yet.
What should 2♥ mean? Is it GF? As opener failed to take a stronger action on his second bid, is this only a strong-showing bid asking for stopper or should responder show 5 card spades?

I would also bid 2♥ as maximum, forcing partner to describe his hand. I would support responder to 3♠ if he rebids 2♠, and probably pass 3♣/♦ - happily knowing I have shown a strong 5-4 hand.

A side question: is 2NT from responder "lebensohl" forcing a 3♣ rebid?

[PetteriLem]

I am amazed to see that all the off-shape no-trumppers are not responding. There is a case for 15-17NT. If you think this is too strong go for it, then try 18-19NT. I would expect 1♦ - 1♠; 3♣ to show a serious minor 2-suiter, not showing uncertainty about possible games 3NT, 4♠, 5♣ or 5♦. I favor recommended 2♣ route.

[Codo]

jdonn, on Jan 28 2008, 06:41 PM, said:

Sorry, your concept is too deep for me. What is the sense in not bidding 3 Heart?
It lets a 3♥ bid be natural in case you are 5-5. It leaves partner room to bid 3♥ himself. You think if partner has spade support or hearts stopped you won't find out over 3♦?

Codo sorry but you speak too strongly in this case, 3♦ is a normal bid. I remember a thread a few months ago after a jump shift where EVERYONE knew responder should make a preference to opener's first suit, but you insisted he should bid 3NT, didn't like anyone's reasons for why that wasn't true, and like this time just kept on insisting and insisting instead of taking the chance to realize why so many good players would think the other way. It's just clear you don't know what 3♦ here means.

The threat you meant is:
BBO Forum
Sorry, but your memory is wrong. I asked the 3 ♥ bidders for their reasons and got none (few). So I asked again. After Frances and Josh were so kind to give the reasons I stopped to ask. I am not confessed by names, just by reasons. So I asked. So your memory did not serve you well this time. (Or did you meant another threat? I don't remeber one. But maybe my memory did not serve me well too.)

And in the actual threat I asked the question, because I would like to understand the reasons for a false preference in this case, which is very different from the other. Justin did not gave one. You did, thank you for that.

So hoping to understand it correct now: The false preference here is a kind of waiting bid, asking opener to show a little bid more about his hand, instead of describing more of the own hand. (It is not completly undescreptive, but could include many more possible hands then I had thought about)

And where is the borderline, when do you stop to give the false preference? Never? You always bid 3 Diamond without 5/5 in the majors or a strong 6 card suit in spades? Or is it KJxxx xx x Qxxxx?

Is it possible, that you will bid 3 ♦ after
1 ♥ 1 ♠ 3 ♣ with
KJxxx xx Qx xxxx too?
Just to safe as much space as possible? Or is this a 5/5 hand too and you bid 3 Heart?

[jdonn]

Codo, on Jan 28 2008, 07:33 AM, said:

So hoping to understand it correct now: The false preference here is a kind of waiting bid, asking opener to show a little bid more about his hand, instead of describing more of the own hand. (It is not completly undescreptive, but could include many more possible hands then I had thought about)

Exactly

There is a style in which responder can preference to opener's first suit on even a singleton, making the bid essentially 100% artificial, but that is not standard. Really it should show at least a doubleton. So your 5215 example is free to bid 4♣ with this very good club support and lack of suitability for 3NT. The 5224 hand would do well to bid 3♦ instead of 4♣ because the club support is bad, and it doesn't rule out 3NT.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Jan 27 2008, 11:18 PM, said:

pclayton, on Jan 27 2008, 08:33 PM, said:

I think a normal auction has the bidding starting 1♦ - 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♦. North might take another call, but thats dubious.

I disagree, 3♦ should show 6-4. South's third bid is a matter of style, either 2♥ or 2♠.

Indeed. I would expect 2♥ and 2♠ to be 1354 and 3154.

[TimG]

pclayton, on Jan 28 2008, 11:06 AM, said:

Indeed. I would expect 2♥ and 2♠ to be 1354 and 3154.

You're never dealt 2254? Or, do you always rebid 2N regardless of stopper in the 4th suit? (When you want to move over 2♦.)

[han]

Agree that 1D.. 2C... 3D.... should show 6-4 in the minors. With 2254 I'd rebid 2NT (with a heart stopper) or 2H (without). I don't think showing a heart fragment in this auction is very important.

[gwnn]

does 3♣ promise 4 clubs... ?

[skjaeran]

gwnn, on Jan 29 2008, 09:34 AM, said:

does 3♣ promise 4 clubs... ?

Depens on who you ask.
To me it strongly suggest 5.

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Jan 29 2008, 03:34 AM, said:

does 3♣ promise 4 clubs... ? 

Yes.

But it is common to bid 3C
on a 3 carder to create a
game forcing situation.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

ArcLight, on Jan 27 2008, 08:21 PM, said:

Why is 3♣ horrible?
I thought the requirements are 19-21 total points (HCP + Length) and isn't taht what South has?
Admitedly the Jx in hearts may be worthless


What am I misunderstanding?
<nothing>

Nothing.

You may or may not bid 3C, as long
as you know, that 3C is game forcing,
the alternative would be 2C.
3C is an overbid, 2C is an underbid,
choose and be prepared to pay the price.

Since you hold 3 jacks, the HCP method
to evaluate the strength of the hand,
overstates the power of the hand to a
certain degree.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

As a totally unrelated question, I held AQx A AQTxxx Axx today.

1♦-1♥
?