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World Markets Crumble Fear Reigns

#41 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2008-January-27, 20:33

ArcLight, on Jan 27 2008, 08:24 PM, said:

>1) What kind of trades are there where you put up zero cash and are not subject to margin calls? Cool, can we play too?

A forward rate agreement where you agree to settle up at some time in the future. Of course you expect the counter party to be AAA and sane.


The point is you aren't buying something that requires you to pay cash on the spot, such as an option. You are entering into an agreement.

Bet the farm!

Lets back up.

A forward rate agreement FRA is a contract in which one party pays a fixed rate of interest rate while the other party promises a floating-rate payment based on LIBOR.

For example a 3X6 FRA, quoted at 5 percent is a contract in which one party pays 5 percent at maturity and the other pays LIBOR. Settlement can be made in one of two ways:

1) In Arreas: I'll skip the details here.
2) In Advance:

In reality a swap agreement is nothing more than a series of forward rate agreements.

There are zillion permuations of swaps.

There are 3 main kinds of risk:
1) Default risk, the issuer will not pay when due
The higest ever recorded in the USA was 9.2% in 1932
2) Credit spread risk: spread will increase
3) Downgrade risk: the credit rating is downgraded by a major credit org.

Of course all of these risks can be managed.
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#42 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2008-January-27, 20:45

pdmunro, on Jan 27 2008, 08:26 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Jan 27 2008, 06:47 PM, said:

How can one hide 75~ billion USD in trades?  Even if you hack the system, you have to pay for the securities, or pay margin. 

Quote from Reuters:

"FACTBOX: Rise and fall of the SocGen rogue trader
Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:35pm EST

* His job was to buy and sell similar financial instruments simultaneously, making money only on the tiny and momentary spread in prices between them -- classic arbitrage trading.

* He was not allowed to leave the bank with a net exposure.

* The alleged fraud, as outlined by the bank, included a genuine long position in regulated stock market index futures, contracts bought in the hope that prices would rise.

* Usually an arbitrageur hedges such a long position with an equal and opposite sale, or short position, reaping a profit from any gaps between the values of the two transactions.

* The SocGen trader did hedge the first position with a second, but the trades in that portfolio were fake. So the bank was unwittingly holding long futures positions without cover, leaving it exposed to the risk that prices would fall.

* To evade controls, for the second portfolio he chose unregulated over-the-counter derivatives which do not need a downpayment, including forward contracts.

* Because there was no downpayment, or margin, these trades were not subject to the same immediate checks as the real futures positions held in the first portfolio.

* Since the real and fake trades balanced each other out, SocGen says its computers perceived "low residual risk" overall.

* As the market turned against him, he sought to cover up mounting losses to avoid further tiers of compliance checks.

* The bank alleges that he misappropriated computer passwords and faked documents. To prevent supervisors from uncovering the fictitious positions, he would erase them before the checks and rebuild new ones immediately afterwards.

* He ended up with a 50 billion euro portfolio, worth more than the bank itself.

http://www.reuters.com/article/ousivMolt/i...0080127?sp=true

****************************************************************

Wall Street Journal

"Rocked by Rogue Trader Société Générale Blames $7.2 Billion in Losses On a Quiet 31-Year-Old
By DAVID GAUTHIER-VILLARS, CARRICK MOLLENKAMP and ALISTAIR MACDONALD
January 25, 2008; Page A1

Mr. Kerviel essentially made bets on which way large European stocks would move, in one of the most liquid markets linked to equities globally. His expertise was trading futures tied to baskets of stocks such as the Euro Stoxx 50. In normal markets, some $40 billion to $50 billion of the futures of that index trade daily. The index gives traders such as pension and hedge funds quick access to a large swath of the European economy, by investing on the belief the index will rise or fall to a certain point in the future. Mr. Kerviel also made trades in Germany's DAX Index and France's CAC-40.

According to Mr. Bouton, the Société Générale chairman, Mr. Kerviel began conducting fraudulent trades sometime in 2007. People familiar with Mr. Kerviel's behavior believe he worked late into the night, essentially burrowing into Société Générale's computers, as he allegedly built a multilayered way to hide his trades by hacking into the computer systems.

Société Générale's computer systems are considered some of the most complex in banking for handling equity derivatives, that is, investment contracts whose value moves with the value of other assets. Officials of the bank believe Mr. Kerviel spent many hours of hacking to eliminate controls that would have blocked his super-sized bets. Changes he is said to have made enabled him to eliminate credit and trade-size controls, so the bank's risk managers couldn't see his giant trades on the direction of indexes.

Mr. Citerne said the bank didn't notice the unauthorized trading until last week because the trader had "intimate and malicious" knowledge of its procedures and knew at what dates checks were conducted. "Each time he took a position one way, he would enter a fictitious trade in the opposite direction to mask the real one," Mr. Citerne said. According to one person familiar with the situation, Mr. Kerviel used the computer log-in and passwords of colleagues both in the trading unit and the technology section.

According to one person familiar with events, the bank's controls did red-flag an outside trading partner of the bank, whose account showed unusually high finance levels. The client, when asked by the bank about the account's finances, denied knowing of it. Pursuing this matter ultimately led to Mr. Kerviel."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1201158146...=hpp_us_pageone (temporary link)
***************************************************
Patrick Hosking: Commentary "The Times" January 25, 2008

To a lot of people Jérôme Kerviel is a hero. Sure, he lost his employer £3.7 billion, but by definition the people he traded with therefore made £3.7 billion. With a few reckless bets, the junior banker has created the equivalent of 3,700 millionaires among the hedge fund managers and traders of the City and other financial centres.

In derivatives trading winners exactly match the losers. Mr Kerviel has merely redistributed wealth from Société Générale shareholders and his former colleagues, whose bonuses will shrink this year, to the happy counter-parties he traded with. To that extent, ordinary bank customers may shrug and say: “So what?” But the fraud has much bigger implications, partly because of the impact that it had on financial markets and policymakers, but mainly because of the stark warning it gives of a much bigger calamity narrowly averted — one capable of hurting every worker, saver and taxpayer in the West.

SocGen’s secret unwinding of the rogue bets almost certainly exacerbated the extraordinary turbulence suffered in European equity markets on Monday and Tuesday. The closing-out of such vast positions pushed share prices lower. Just as a punter will move the odds by placing a sackful of cash on a rank outsider on a quiet afternoon at Uttoxeter, so SocGen’s rushed attempts to extricate itself worsened an already nauseous day for shares.
...
SocGen ... has trades outstanding with other global banks with a face value of trillions of dollars. It claims to be the biggest equity derivatives house in the world. The failure of such an institution would lead to paralysis in markets, with everyone terrified of doing business with everyone else for fear that they too had been contaminated. That would without doubt lead to a world recession, a world depression probably."
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle3248283.ece

****************************************************************
From "The Times" January 26, 2008

"Dark ideas on SocGen affair" Martin Waller: City diary

"Meanwhile, an entirely convincing conspiracy theory suggests Jérôme Kerviel phoned a friend at A Well-Known US Investment Bank on Sunday for advice, and that the said bank positioned itself rather conveniently in the falling market on Monday morning as a consequence. I think I'd better not name the bank."

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/busi...icle3254292.ece

*****************************************************************************************

Well we all can see a bunch of silly stuff here. Talk about no safeguards but I am not suprised, this has gone on before and still they do nothing to stop the easiest stuff, like check more and do not announce checks. This guy was not even a computer specialist and yet was able to basically control the computer?

The whole system is set up to find you but it just takes a long time....months or longer.

Why? basically it is the blind leading the blind.....
Lets poke around and we will figure this thing out sooner or later. In this case later.

Just look at one issue, trades can be entered and then disappear and the back office or head office does not know.
Second issue, stuff is checked but not that often......

Just these two things are very very common.
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#43 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2008-January-27, 23:08

mike777, on Jan 27 2008, 09:33 PM, said:

ArcLight, on Jan 27 2008, 08:24 PM, said:

>1) What kind of trades are there where you put up zero cash and are not subject to margin calls? Cool, can we play too?

A forward rate agreement where you agree to settle up at some time in the future.  Of course you expect the counter party to be AAA and sane.


The point is you aren't buying something that requires you to pay cash on the spot, such as an option.  You are entering into an agreement.

Bet the farm!

Lets back up.

A forward rate agreement FRA is a contract in which one party pays a fixed rate of interest rate while the other party promises a floating-rate payment based on LIBOR.

For example a 3X6 FRA, quoted at 5 percent is a contract in which one party pays 5 percent at maturity and the other pays LIBOR. Settlement can be made in one of two ways:

1) In Arreas: I'll skip the details here.
2) In Advance:

In reality a swap agreement is nothing more than a series of forward rate agreements.

There are zillion permuations of swaps.

There are 3 main kinds of risk:
1) Default risk, the issuer will not pay when due
The higest ever recorded in the USA was 9.2% in 1932
2) Credit spread risk: spread will increase
3) Downgrade risk: the credit rating is downgraded by a major credit org.

Of course all of these risks can be managed.

Thank you, Mike. That is good information. On a side note, I wish you would adopt this straight-on writing style more often. When I can uderstand your position, I find your point of view valuable, even those time when I disagree.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#44 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2008-January-27, 23:16

Notice how often when they talk about massive fraud somehow
1) No one checked alot of stuff very often.
2) Things can be erased and no one checks for a long time
3) Passwords, human error, billions have billions of passwords and ten people in the whole world remember them all without notes..:)

Note what catches them.....someone outside of the bank complains almost always a customer of the bank who checked their own account. :)
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#45 User is offline   ArcLight 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 07:42

>* To evade controls, for the second portfolio he chose unregulated over-the-counter derivatives which do not need a downpayment, including forward contracts.

Mike,
When you enter into a trade that settles into the future you wont have an immediate margin call. (I shouldnt have said FRA, just a future ). The hit comes at the time of settlement (unless the position changes by more than a certain amount) which may be a long time in the future. This is sort of how Joe Jett of Kidder Peabody was able to create ~400 million in smoke and mirror profits in the mid 90s.

In this case PDmonroes article seems to explain what happened.

I find it interesting that he got caught when one of the customers got flagged as having a large position and was contacted.


I liked this one>

To a lot of people Jérôme Kerviel is a hero. Sure, he lost his employer £3.7 billion, but by definition the people he traded with therefore made £3.7 billion. With a few reckless bets, the junior banker has created the equivalent of 3,700 millionaires among the hedge fund managers and traders of the City and other financial centres.



It dopes seem weird that the system allowed him to cancel, or crete bogus trades of such large amounts. That another safeguard to add.

>Officials of the bank believe Mr. Kerviel spent many hours of hacking to eliminate controls that would have blocked his super-sized bets. Changes he is said to have made enabled him to eliminate credit and trade-size controls, so the bank's risk managers couldn't see his giant trades on the direction of indexes.

Did they not deactivate his account once he left the back office and became a trader? How did he know others passwords? That is a breech taht is hard to protect against.
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#46 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 11:05

mike777, on Jan 27 2008, 09:45 PM, said:

Well we all can see a bunch of silly stuff here. Talk about no safeguards but I am not suprised, this has gone on before and still they do nothing to stop the easiest stuff, like check more and do not announce checks. This guy was not even a computer specialist and yet was able to basically control the computer?

I don't buy it either. OK, so he made these multibillion fake deals with no money down, but something had to happen with them. He wouldn't be handling checks going in or out, so how could he possibly keep it hidden after the balances came due?

One rumor I saw somewhere was that he was actually making a profit doing this, and it was only when he started getting losses for the bank that he was shut down. I'm also not sure how this qualifies as fraud...I'm used to fraud meaning deception for gain. But the customers weren't defauded: they got the instruments they were expecting. And the bank wasn't defrauded, because the guy doing it wasn't doing it for profit or other gain. The bank was being deceived to help the bank. I don't see how that's fraud, exactly.
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#47 User is offline   Al_U_Card 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 15:07

I find it interesting that there is some confusion about making and losing money.

The movers and shakers (the federal reserve is their private country club btw) know exactly what is going on. When the markets plunge, trillions of $ of market capital are not "lost", the people that sold their holdings just before or at the onset, "consolidated" their earnings. Only the not in the know and slow to react paid the price. Most of them do not sell when the market is super down, so the "consolidators" then come back into the market and re-purchase at the now much lower prices....its all part of the "rich get richer" business cycle.

The SocGen position seems too silly to be planned but you never know. Shoddy business practices are the province and privilege of those that can afford it and also those that know what they are doing. There are a lot of high-priced financial helpers in these lofty bastions of capitalism....let's get real.
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#48 User is offline   grrigg 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 17:18

When 80-90% (or some high and impressive number, dont sue me over this) of the mutual funds underperform S&P 500 an index that is easily available for anyone to buy I have a very hard time believing rich conspiracy theories.
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#49 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 19:34

The other side now chimes in:

Quote

Lawyer for SocGen trader: "He didn't steal anything"
Associated Press
updated 4:13 p.m. ET, Sun., Jan. 27, 2008

PARIS - A lawyer for the trader accused by Societe Generale of fraudulent trades costing billions said Sunday that accusations of wrongdoing against his client were being used to hide bad U.S. mortgage investments by the bank.

"He didn't steal anything, take anything, he didn't take any profit for himself," the lawyer, Christian Charriere-Bournazel, told The Associated Press by telephone, speaking of his client, Jerome Kerviel. "The suspicion on Kerviel allows the considerable losses that the bank made on subprimes to be hidden," he added….

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
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#50 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 19:46

grrigg, on Jan 29 2008, 01:18 AM, said:

When 80-90% (or some high and impressive number, dont sue me over this) of the mutual funds underperform S&P 500 an index that is easily available for anyone to buy I have a very hard time believing rich conspiracy theories.

The conspiracy is about selling worthless stock to mediocre investors like you and me. The rich bastards don't waste their own money on equity funds.

Dunno if it's true but that was the consiracy theory I heard.
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#51 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2008-January-28, 21:19

helene_t, on Jan 28 2008, 08:46 PM, said:

grrigg, on Jan 29 2008, 01:18 AM, said:

When 80-90% (or some high and impressive number, dont sue me over this) of the mutual funds underperform S&P 500 an index that is easily available for anyone to buy I have a very hard time believing rich conspiracy theories.

The conspiracy is about selling worthless stock to mediocre investors like you and me. The rich bastards don't waste their own money on equity funds.

Dunno if it's true but that was the consiracy theory I heard.

The other main reason most (80% iirc) funds lose to the market is because of fees. Most managed funds have fees ranging from 1 to 5%. It is hard (some say impossible) to beat the market by more than the fees.
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#52 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2008-January-29, 08:44

Mbodell, on Jan 28 2008, 10:19 PM, said:

<snip>
The other main reason most (80% iirc) funds lose to the market is because of fees. Most managed funds have fees ranging from 1 to 5%. It is hard (some say impossible) to beat the market by more than the fees.

Yes.

If you dont want to invest a lot of time in searching, and
checking and shifting after a certain amount of time,
it is usually best to invest in a index fund, which wins /
loses proportional to the wins / loses of the DOW, or
which ever index you did choose.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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