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competing over a strong jump shift

Poll: (1D)-(2S)-? Are 3H and 4H bids sound or preemptive? (19 member(s) have cast votes)

(1D)-(2S)-? Are 3H and 4H bids sound or preemptive?

  1. both are preemptive (12 votes [63.16%])

    Percentage of vote: 63.16%

  2. both are sound (3 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

  3. 3H is preemptive, but 4H is sound (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. 3H is sound, but 4H is preemptive (4 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

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#1 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2008-January-16, 10:19

The opponents open and respond with a strong jump shift

(1♦)-(2♠)-?

With what kind of hands would you bid 3♥ or 4♥ here?

Stylistically, are these basically preemptive bids, or basically sound bids? Does this qualitative nature change based on the vulnerability?
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#2 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-January-16, 10:42

They have to be preemptive because you don't have points :)

3♥ is more lead-directing and 4♥ shape-showing.
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#3 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 00:22

Thanks to those who voted. Seems like the consensus is that these suit bids are treated as purely preemptive by most. A friend of mine went so far as to say that 3♥ was -1100 and 4♥ was -1400, by way of saying how much distribution one needed to bid in this situation.

How would you rate this hand in this situation:

Pass, 3♥, or 4♥? Would it rate a bid at certain colors but not others?
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#4 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 02:16

I'd bid 5H at favourable, 4H at equal and pass at adverse.

I'd never bid 3H, because the obstructive benefits are small but it still has the disadvantage that it may help them to play the hand.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#5 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 02:20

7411? great suit? 4 Heart at least.
Kind Regards

Roland

Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
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#6 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 07:58

Would probably bid 4♥ except red/white (3♥ only).
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#7 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 11:20

I don't think "preemptive" is the right description. But they both show suits and say little about highcards.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 11:33

If not preemptive, what then, Han? Lead-directing? Sacrifice-oriented?
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#9 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 14:38

Yes, I think 3H will often be lead directing. Not that one would often bid in this auction.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#10 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 15:12

There's not enough values left for "sound" to have any meaning in this sequence.

There are still three valuable reasons to bid:
  • Leaddirecting
  • Preempting
  • Finding a save

3♥ could be leaddirecting and looking for a save, while higher bids would be preemptive and looking for a save.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#11 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 15:45

A bid that doesn't take away much space and is made after the opponents have already said a lot about their hands can't be preemptive, it can't preempt anyone of doing anything. If "preemptive" means "(1♣)-(2♠)-3♥ is bid with a similar set of hands as (1♣)-3♥" then that is closer to the truth, but it is still wrong - I would bid on the first auction only if I have a really good suit as the upside (of opponents getting the decisions wrong) is much much smaller.
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#12 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-January-17, 16:32

The upside includes partner leading a heart against a possible 3NT when we have something like Axxx KQJ10xx xx x.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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