[ArtK78]

Two part question:

You are playing IMPs, all vulnerable. You hold:

Scoring: IMPs

---

1) Your RHO opens 2♥ (weak). What is your call?

2) Your RHO opens 2♦ Multi - either a weak 2 in hearts or a weak 2 in spades. No strong options. What is your call?

[Walddk]

1) 2♠
2) 2♠*

* As I mentioned in a another thread recently, this is a take-out double of 2♥ with 4-5 spades. Even if I don't play that method, I would still bid a natural 2♠.

Roland

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 2S
#2 2S

With kind regards
Marlowe

[inquiry]

Over 2♥, i bid 2♠

Over 2♦ I double (multi-versus-multi), showing a variety of hands, the most likely of which is include a five card major. Follow up auctions are...

2♦-DBL-2♥

• pass, partner bids normal pass/correct type stuff as if I opened 2♦ multi, but he can pass with diamonds.
  
• 2♥, double by partner is negative, showing spades. If my major happened to be hearts, they could be in trouble, but of course, here i have spades so I will bid 2♠.
  
• 2♥-pass, when this gets back to me, I will double, showing spades. This could be bad for them if my partner has hearts, given i also have Qx. So we get a shot at them in 2♥ for penatly and I still get my five card spade suit off my chest.

[ArtK78]

I am a little surprised at the actions of the posters. I will admit, however, that at least Ben's methods force the opponents to "show their hand," so to speak, before we commit ourselves.

Personally, I think that this hand is below standard for an overcall of 2♠ over 2♥, and frighteningly below standard for an overcall of 2♠ when the opponent could have spades! My partner bid 2♠ over 2♦ multi, and the full hand was:

Scoring: IMP

(2♦)* - 2♠ - (x)** - P
(P)*** - 2NT - (x) - 3♣
(x) - All Pass

---

* - Multi - weak 2 in either major
** - Pass or correct
*** - my suit is spades

My partner realized that 2♠ was not going to fare well (no kidding) and self-pulled to 2NT, which I converted to 3♣. The defense wasn't perfect, so I escaped for "only" -500.

Of course, if one manages to be a little more disciplined and pass over 2♦ with the spade hand, the result will be a lot better.

[655321]

1) 2♠
2) 2♠

I think 2♠ is clear in both cases. Yes, it would be nice to have more shape, but this is all they gave you. If you bid, sometimes (not often) RHO has a weak 2 in Spades, partner is broke and you get carted out. If you pass, RHO (more often) has a weak 2 in Hearts, LHO will raise to game, and you will wish you had bid.

[MFA]

2 x 2♠.

I agree that 2♠ after a multi has a slightly higher minimum that after a 2♥ opening (because we have the option of passing and balancing with 2♠).
However, this hand qualifies for a direct 2♠.

[andy_h]

2S and 2S. I have an opening hand with decent cards and I want to get in early. How troublesome it will be in both auctions when LHO pre-empts/raises to game in hearts if we had passed.

[Codo]

I join the chorus of 2 ♠ 2 ♠.

And I congratulate you to your nice score, they have 620 on their side quite easy-even after a spade lead. So blame your teammates to miss this vul game.

[jdonn]

2♠ 2♠ I can't imagine anything else.

[Echognome]

OP: What do you bid?

Poster 1: <the obvious bid>
Poster 2: <the obvious bid>
Poster 3: <the obvious bid>
Poster 4: <the obvious bid, but I also have a gadget not mentioned>
Poster 5: <the obvious bid>

OP: Clearly this is wrong. My partner did this and the full board was this and it was definitely wrong. Can't everyone see this? Only the poster with the gadget not mentioned is right.

Poster 6: <the obvious bid>
Poster 7: <the obvious bid>

Note: This is only a dramatization. All characters mentioned above are fictional and any resemblance to actual events or posts is only coincidence.

[the hog]

I join the chorus.

[Walddk]

Codo, on Jan 8 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

And I congratulate you to your nice score, they have 620 on their side quite easy-even after a spade lead. So blame your teammates to miss this vul game.

Even better: 650 on any lead.

So ArtK78 thinks this hand is too weak to act directly. It's a view, but if this is your approach to the game, I think you will miss out on too many good or even cold games because you are frightened of going for 800 or 1100. It's a risk, sure, but I believe it's a bigger risk to remain passive.

Let me give you an example. You are vul against not with ...

♠ AKQ532
♥ xx
♦ AQ
♣ xxx

RHO opens a weak 2♥. I assume that even you would overcall 2♠ at this point. No one would blame you, but it's not your day because LHO has ...

♠ J109876
♥ Ax
♦ KJ4
♣ AK

He doubles and all you get is your three top spades and ♦A. 1100 away. Very unlucky, I agree, but should that stop you from overcalling again next time? Definitely not. Accept that there is a risk when you overcall, with this hand as well as the hand you put forward.

But in my opinion you will win in the long run by being active (bid) rather than being passive (pass). No one asks you to be foolhardy and bid on tram tickets, but I think it's a good idea to get in if you have a reasonable hand. The hand you posted is one of those. Not great, but reasonable.

Roland

[ArtK78]

Walddk, on Jan 8 2008, 06:11 AM, said:

Codo, on Jan 8 2008, 10:07 AM, said:

And I congratulate you to your nice score, they have 620 on their side quite easy-even after a spade lead. So blame your teammates to miss this vul game.

Even better: 650 on any lead.

So ArtK78 thinks this hand is too weak to act directly. It's a view, but if this is your approach to the game, I think you will miss out on too many good or even cold games because you are frightened of going for 800 or 1100. It's a risk, sure, but I believe it's a bigger risk to remain passive.

Let me give you an example. You are vul against not with ...

♠ AKQ532
♥ xx
♦ AQ
♣ xxx

RHO opens a weak 2♥. I assume that even you would overcall 2♠ at this point. No one would blame you, but it's not your day because LHO has ...

♠ J109876
♥ Ax
♦ KJ4
♣ AK

He doubles and all you get is your three top spades and ♦A. 1100 away. Very unlucky, I agree, but should that stop you from overcalling again next time? Definitely not. Accept that there is a risk when you overcall, with this hand as well as the hand you put forward.

But in my opinion you will win in the long run by being active (bid) rather than being passive (pass). No one asks you to be foolhardy and bid on tram tickets, but I think it's a good idea to get in if you have a reasonable hand. The hand you posted is one of those. Not great, but reasonable.

Roland

You don't have to create extreme examples. Any bid can fail due to bad breaks.

The posters on this forum tend to be very aggressive. I like to have better than opening bid values for a direct action over a preempt. If you held, all vul at IMPs:

Qx AQ9xx KT9 Kxx

and your LHO opened 1♠, would you bid 2♥? Maybe you would, but you have to admit that it is not a clear overcall vulnerable at IMPs. This is a similar situation.

In my opinion, this hand is not a vul overcall of a weak 2 bid. Obviously I am in the minority here. It really is not that great of a hand. Now, if the major suits were AQJ9x and xx instead of AQ9xx and Qx, I would have no problem with the overcall. Less high card points but a better hand.

As for those who said that my -500 beat the opponents vul 4♥ game, that is a totally absurd comment. Not only would no one ever bid 4♥ on these cards, but it is an extremely lucky make. In real life, we lost 12 IMPs against 2♠ down one.

[DWM]

Does it really matter what happened on one hand.

Adjusting how you bid because of one bad break will only work in two situations.

1 You needed the adjustment anyway as there was a big whole in your system/style.

2 You get the same bad break again.

Not bidding 2♠ on the off chance that there is a 6-6-1-0 split in them is bad bridge.

For the aggressive bidding I suggest that you look at some of the experts bidding and see how they value hands, when I did I was surprised. I know that my declarer play is no where near their quality, however, I also know that my opponents defence is not international quality either.

[Codo]

ArtK78, on Jan 8 2008, 09:36 PM, said:

You don't have to create extreme examples. Any bid can fail due to bad breaks.

The posters on this forum tend to be very aggressive. I like to have better than opening bid values for a direct action over a preempt.

In my opinion, this hand is not a vul overcall of a weak 2 bid. Obviously I am in the minority here.
As for those who said that my -500 beat the opponents vul 4♥ game, that is a totally absurd comment. Not only would no one ever bid 4♥ on these cards, but it is an extremely lucky make. In real life, we lost 12 IMPs against 2♠ down one.

1. If 8 from 8 posters bid 2 Spade with this hand, you are in a minority of one.
Anyway f.e. Roland Wald wrote that this isn´t the best hand for a 2 Spade bid. I do agree with him, for me this is near the minimum for a direct 2 Spade bid. And I won´t shoot my pd when he decided to pass first and bid 2 Spade after two heart was passed round to him. But your borderline is still way away from the line the majority draws.

2. Yes if you just bid with very good suits in good hands, you write -500 or worse less often. But unluckily you write +140 +620 etc less often too.
You are allowed to do so but the majority including much better players then you and me do not agree with you. They simply believe that your approach is not winning bridge.

3. That no one would bid 4 Heart is a big statement.
Your pd opens a weak two (obviously in Spades) and you have 15 nice HCPs and two suits. You need not much to make 4 Heart a nice contract. Give pd Axxxxx,xx,xx,xxx and you can make it, if the heart finesse works. And partner will surely possess more then this, he opened vul. in first seat.
I agree that not everybody would bid 4 Heart, but I am quite certain that I would.

Give this hand to this forum and ask: Your pd opened 2 Diamond (minimulti) vul., what do you bid with x, AKJ9x,AQJxx,xx?
Do you really believe that noone will give it a try?
I would guess that at least 40 % of all players will try for the vul. game.

[ArtK78]

Codo, on Jan 8 2008, 09:33 AM, said:

That no one would bid 4 Heart is a big statement.
Your pd opens a weak two (obviously in Spades) and you have 15 nice HCPs and two suits. You need not much to make 4 Heart a nice contract. Give pd Axxxxx,xx,xx,xxx and you can make it, if the heart finesse works. And partner will surely possess more then this, he opened vul. in first seat.
I agree that not everybody would bid 4 Heart, but I am quite certain that I would.

Give this hand to this forum and ask: Your pd opened 2 Diamond (minimulti) vul., what do you bid with x, AKJ9x,AQJxx,xx?
Do you really believe that noone will give it a try?
I would guess that at least 40 % of all players will try for the vul. game.

I would guess that most would bid 2♠, pass or correct, and if by some chance partner had a weak 2 in HEARTS, then they would certainly bid the game.

I would not try for game opposite a weak 2 spade opening bid. It is a lot to ask for partner to have the right cards.

By the way, one thing that I did not mention in the original post (but it probably does not matter) is that the Multi bid was used by this partnership on weak 2s with an upper range of about 9 HCP. With 10-14 they would open 2♥ or 2♠.

I am comfortable being in a minority of one or two on this hand. I do not believe it is good enough to overcall 2♠ over a weak 2♥ bid, and certainly not over a Multi bid. I do not take the result of one hand as dispositive. But I do take it as instructive. So many make bids reflexively without considering the risks involved. A 2♠ bid here is risky, and that should be taken into consideration.

My partner knows that I will balance freely if I am in balancing seat over a weak 2 bid, since direct actions show values. Yes, the possibility of being preempted exists, but I am not too worried about it.

[Walddk]

Now, you ask two questions in your original post. You get uanimous 2♠ x 2, and all you care to tell us is that we are "aggressive". I don't mind, call me aggressive, but you seem to be disappointed that you did not get the answers you were hoping for.

Why ask the questions if you don't care? It doesn't seem to matter what we think anyway since you are convinced that we should have replied 2 x pass. I can understand your disappointment, but if you raise questions in the forums, you must accept that not everyone agrees with you.

In this case no one does. You've got to accept that too.

Roland

[mycroft]

I wouldn't accept your hand as a 2H overcall of 1S, but I'd be worried I'm missing out.

I'm bidding whatever shows spades over 2H and 2D. This time it got me? Well, preempts win sometimes - and I want "better than minimum opener" for an overcall. That theory has cost me frequently in the past where overcalling on a crap 13 was the right call, and it will again, but on the other hand I am sure I've saved myself numbers with it, too.

The difference is that 1S opener, unless I'm playing against Groetheim and his ilk, is on average at least a king stronger than 2H; that king+ is 50% in partner's hand; game is likely after 2H, and not anywhere near as much after 1S - plus, I'm a favourite to lose the partscore battle.

Note: with your additional information, the average 1S opener is now likely to be *two* kings better than this pair's 2D.

Feel free to be more chicken than I. I'll take all the -100s into game I can get.

Michael.