[Raivis]

Opps silent.
1♦-1♥
2♠-3♣
3♦-3♠
4♣-4♦
7♥ All Pass.

How much you know from this bidding?

[Gerben42]

1♦: 3+♦
- 1♥: 4+♥
2♠: GF, 5 - 4
- 3♣: 4th suit forcing
3♦: No stopper.
- 3♠: SI with fit
4♣: Control (must be shortness)
- 4♦: Control (may not be shortness)
7♥ (!)

Must ask partner to bid 7NT with some value, and this must be either ♣ or ♥ Ace opposite the void.

♠AQxx
♥A
♦KQxxxxxx
♣-

He knows of the fit and at least ♦Ax. Partner probably doesn't have 4 small ♠ for his slam try.

Gerben

[FrancesHinden]

I wouldn't have this auction. It makes some sense up to 4D, sort of, but 7H is from outer space. The trump suit if any is diamonds.

Gerben: if 2S was game forcing, why can't responder raise to 3S 'SI with fit'?

[mikeh]

In every version of standard that I know, 2♠ established a game force, so the auction appears to make no sense towards the end.

3♣ should be natural: catering to a monster 4=0=5=4.

3♦ should be 4=x=6=y

3♠ is mysterious: either an advance cue (which is a horrendous idea), or Hxx or HHx

4♣ a cue, but in support of what?

4♦: who knows? Belated support or a cue in support of?

7♥: the outcome of frustration.

After 2♠, responder should ALWAYS support either diamonds or spades if either looks like trump to him. 3♦ and 3♠ are both forcing, since 2♠ is itself a force to game. Thus 3♣ denies primary support for either suit.

With secondary support, responder should raise 3♦ to 4♦, not make an ambiguous advance cue.

And opener should support responder at his earliest opportunity with genuine support.

The given auction is utterly confused because, it seems, neither partner understands these basic concepts.

[Fluffy]

Agree with mike. I think 3♣ can be not natural, but that's an exception for 3523

[Raivis]

If opener have two suiter ♦+♠ who not bid 1♠?

[FrancesHinden]

Raivis, on Jan 2 2008, 05:55 PM, said:

If opener have two suiter ♦+♠ who not bid 1♠?

Those who believe that 1S is not forcing.

[Raivis]

Don't believe as 1♠ not force!
Partner must bid over 1♠ or passed to 1♦!

[Fluffy]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 2 2008, 05:01 PM, said:

Raivis, on Jan 2 2008, 05:55 PM, said:

If opener have two suiter ♦+♠ who not bid 1♠?

Those who believe that 1S is not forcing.

Also those who believe 1♠ is forcing but want to show GF values.

[FrancesHinden]

Out of Mike's 11 statements, I agree with 9 of them.

Quote

3♣ should be natural: catering to a monster 4=0=5=4.

This seems to be a standard North American approach - that in an auction that is already forcing, '4th suit' is natural. The European tendency is to continue to play 4th suit as meaning 'I don't have a suitable natural bid, please bid your hand further'. So for me,

1♦ - 1♥
2♠-3♣
3♦-3♠
4♣-4♦
7♥ All Pass

2S = game forcing, at least 5 diamonds, at least 4 spades
3C = no primary spade or diamond support, hearts not worth rebidding (either 4 cards, or would rather hear opener's rebid than bid a 5-card suit), either no club stop or an antipositional one (e.g. Kxx).
3D = should have a 6th diamond, may be stuck for a rebid holding say AKQx x AKQJx xxx but a bit obscure
3S = most likely 'I don't know what to bid' (poor hearts, no club stop, no real diamond support - what else do you bid looking at KQx Jxxxx xx xxx?)
4C = I've got a good hand, too good to bid 3NT, and I have a club control
4D = OK I've got something useful in diamonds


7H = oops, the hand I thought was AKQx Ax KQJxxx x is in fact AKQx AKQxxx Ax x and I don't know how to tell you.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 2 2008, 12:19 PM, said:

Out of Mike's 11 statements, I agree with 9 of them.

Quote

3♣ should be natural: catering to a monster 4=0=5=4.

This seems to be a standard North American approach - that in an auction that is already forcing, '4th suit' is natural. The European tendency is to continue to play 4th suit as meaning 'I don't have a suitable natural bid, please bid your hand further'.

That is almost the same thing anyway. Any hand with no suitable natural bid has implied length in the fourth suit anyway. If you don't have 4 spades, 6 hearts, or 3 diamonds, you must have 3+ clubs.

[awm]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2008, 12:30 PM, said:

That is almost the same thing anyway. Any hand with no suitable natural bid has implied length in the fourth suit anyway. If you don't have 4 spades, 6 hearts, or 3 diamonds, you must have 3+ clubs.

I actually don't think it is almost the same. Some of the differences:

(1) Say opener has 4-0-5-4 but is actually fairly minimum for the game force. Is he expected to raise 3♣ to 4♣ or bid 3NT? In Mike's style where 3♣ was a real suit it seems fairly clear to raise to 4♣ -- responder has at least four clubs and could easily have five or more. In Frances' style where 3♣ is often a three-card suit or a weak four-carder, it seems like bidding 3NT is percentage.

(2) Say opener has a 4-2-5-2 with nothing in clubs. Is he expected to bid 3NT next (pattern) or try something else? In Mike's style where 3♣ was a real suit there is no concern about a club stopper for notrump and there seems to be no fit. Bidding 3NT is clear. In Frances' style where 3♣ is often a weak three-card suit, it will often be better to play a 5-2 heart fit on this hand, and almost any other call opener can reasonably make is likely to work better than bidding 3NT.

[han]

Are you all discussing opener's 3C while responder bid it?

[awm]

Hannie, on Jan 2 2008, 01:48 PM, said:

Are you all discussing opener's 3C while responder bid it?

I think the discussion is:

1♦ - 1♥
2♠ - 3♣

Let's assume the natural interpretation that 1♦ and 1♥ showed those suits and 2♠ is natural and game forcing (4+♠, 5+♦). What does 3♣ mean by responder? It seems like:

Mikeh: It's a natural suit, at least four clubs and often five. This enables us to find a club fit if opener has 4-0-5-4.

FrancesHinden: It's a punt, often a hand without any other clear bid. This enables us to avoid and/or right-side 3NT when responder has something like ♣xxx or ♣Axx.

Jdonn: Frances and Mike's meanings are similar anyway, since responder must have either 4♠, 6♥, 3♦, or 3♣. The only difference is whether 3♣ shows "3+♣" or "4+♣".

Awm: It actually makes a big difference, since Frances' 3♣ is often a weak club holding. This has a big effect on what opener should bid at next turn after the 3♣ call.

[han]

Ah ok, careless reading by me.

[whereagles]

Raivis, on Jan 2 2008, 02:49 PM, said:

Opps silent.
1♦-1♥
2♠-3♣
3♦-3♠
4♣-4♦
7♥ All Pass.

How much you know from this bidding?

2♠ = 54 game force
3♣ = 4th suit, asking for more info
3♦ = 64, or 54 with good diams and no club stop
3♠ = no club stop either, but have 3 spades, in case you wanna try the moysian
4♣ = moysian is ok with me. I think we may even have a slam, so I cue
4♦ = I'm cueing too
7♥ = I have a death wish

[neilkaz]

Raivis, on Jan 2 2008, 08:49 AM, said:

Opps silent.
1♦-1♥
2♠-3♣
3♦-3♠
4♣-4♦
7♥ All Pass.

How much you know from this bidding?

How much do I know from the bidding ? Well I know that I am getting set

What can PD hold to justify bidding like this but not supporting ♥ earlier ..ie no later than his 3rd bid ? I do strongly think he is void in ♣. This being the adv/exp forum I have to assume PD knows what he is doing. I suspect he has 6♦, 4♠, 3♥ and that all suits are good suits and that he has 3 strong ♥.

Why did he blast and take away so much bidding room when from my standpoint trumps aren't set ?

Well 7♥ sets trump for me. I'll trust pd and pass.

[mikeh]

FrancesHinden, on Jan 2 2008, 12:19 PM, said:

Out of Mike's 11 statements, I agree with 9 of them.

Quote

3♣ should be natural: catering to a monster 4=0=5=4.

This seems to be a standard North American approach - that in an auction that is already forcing, '4th suit' is natural. The European tendency is to continue to play 4th suit as meaning 'I don't have a suitable natural bid, please bid your hand further'. So for me,

1♦ - 1♥
2♠-3♣
3♦-3♠
4♣-4♦
7♥ All Pass

2S = game forcing, at least 5 diamonds, at least 4 spades
3C = no primary spade or diamond support, hearts not worth rebidding (either 4 cards, or would rather hear opener's rebid than bid a 5-card suit), either no club stop or an antipositional one (e.g. Kxx).
3D = should have a 6th diamond, may be stuck for a rebid holding say AKQx x AKQJx xxx but a bit obscure
3S = most likely 'I don't know what to bid' (poor hearts, no club stop, no real diamond support - what else do you bid looking at KQx Jxxxx xx xxx?)
4C = I've got a good hand, too good to bid 3NT, and I have a club control
4D = OK I've got something useful in diamonds


7H = oops, the hand I thought was AKQx Ax KQJxxx x is in fact AKQx AKQxxx Ax x and I don't know how to tell you.

I have thought about it some more, and I am thinking that I may have been too hasty in my assertion that 3♣ was natural.

The more I think about this sequence, the more confused I become.

Any meaningful discussion of the meaning of 3♣ should include consideration of the meaning of 2N, responder to choose that call.

We can usually find clubs if responder has hearts and clubs and chooses to bid 2N rather than 3♣... so, on that basis, Frances' view that 3♣ is a 'noise' (my word, not her's) has a lot going for it. OTOH, surely there will be hands on which opener's best continuation after 2N is 3♣ on a chunky 3 card suit: say AKJx x AKxxx KQx, rather than a crude 3N which may be buying Qx Jxxx xxx Axxx.

If opener is expected to punt over 2N with hands on this nature, then responder has to be careful... the example I gave is good for slam in clubs if opener is AKJx void AKxxx KQxx, but not if 4=1=5=3.

So I think that the question of whether 3♣ is a noise/punt or natural depends in part on the meaning one gives to 2N by responder and, especially, a 3♣ rebid by opener over 2N.


BTW, note that we have no compunction, it seems, about using 2N as artificial in sequences such as 1♦ 1♠ 2♥. Obviously the considerations are different here, due to the GF nature of 2♠, but there is some argument in favour of 2N being a noise/punt rather than using 3♣ for that purpose.

[ASkolnick]

I'll work backwards.

I think he has 4-3-6-0 hand or 4-3-5-1 with stiff AC.
Let's say 3C isn't natural.

His bidding indicates short diamonds, so he rates to have longer hearts. The other person's bidding has indicated 5 Hearts regardless of whether clubs showed clubs, since there was no support for the diamond suit. At most 2, chose to raise spades but not immediately so probably 3, Clubs rate to be short <3, therefore, Hearts have to be 5+.

[kenrexford]

I'm not sure what question is being asked, because some of the responses are inconsistent with my assumptions. I was assuming a question of how this auction as a whole makes sense.

Assuming that 7♥ makes sense seems to mean that hearts have been agreed. The most plausible explanation was that 2♠ was fit-showing, perhaps a mini-splinter.

The auction would then be:

1♦ = natural
1♥ = natura;
2♠ = fit, with shortness in spades
3♣ = cuebid (club control)
3♦ = cuebid (two of the top three honors)
3♠ = cuebid (not two of the top three hearts, but the spade Ace)
4♣ = cuebid (second club control)
4♦ = cuebid (the third missing diamond)
7♥ = that's all I needed

Opener must perforce have HHxx in hearts and HHxxx+ in diamonds, it seems, with the club Ace or King. Maybe ♠x ♥KQJx ♦AQJxxx ♣Kx?

That gives Responder something like ♠Axxx ♥Axxx ♦Kxx ♣Ax.

All makes sense if you assume that 7♥ makes sense because 2♠ agreed hearts.