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Can you ensure 10 tricks?

#1 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 10:33

Scoring: IMP

S: 4S
Lead: C8

You are in 4♠ as South after East opened the bidding with a natural 1♣. West leads ♣8 and your 10 wins the first trick.

Not a bad contract. Can you ensure 10 tricks no matter how the EW cards are distributed?

(Please remember that this is the B/I forum, so if you are a more advanced player, perhaps you should wait, alternatively use hidden text).

Roland
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#2 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 10:39

Spoiler

Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#3 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-December-25, 12:02

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 11:39 AM, said:

Spoiler

try harder han you will get there :) This is a theme that actually comes up in real life too, good hand.
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 12:07

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :)
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#5 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 12:58

Well, it would have to be really freaky distribution to stop....

Spoiler

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#6 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:08

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :(

Hi,

This is not possible given the bidding as I'm sure you know. Please stop being pedantic, thanks.
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#7 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:09

jtfanclub, on Dec 25 2007, 08:58 PM, said:

Well, it would have to be really freaky distribution to stop....

Spoiler

You can do better than that, jt. You actually contradict yourself at some point.

Roland
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#8 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:09

jtfanclub, on Dec 25 2007, 01:58 PM, said:

Well, it would have to be really freaky distribution to stop....

Spoiler

Hi,

7-0 hearts is not your main risk (or a risk at all), 6-1 clubs are. If LHO ruffs your ace of clubs and plays a spade you will go down.

edit: Roland is faster than me :(
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:11

Jlall, on Dec 25 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :(

Hi,

This is not possible given the bidding as I'm sure you know. Please stop being pedantic, thanks.

Well, given that the problem said "Can you ensure 10 tricks no matter how the EW cards are distributed?" I wouldn't call it pedantic.
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#10 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:17

cherdano, on Dec 25 2007, 09:11 PM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 25 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :(

Hi,

This is not possible given the bidding as I'm sure you know. Please stop being pedantic, thanks.

Well, given that the problem said "Can you ensure 10 tricks no matter how the EW cards are distributed?" I wouldn't call it pedantic.

Right, unless hearts and diamonds are 7-0, clubs 6-1 and spades 5-0. Give me a break. East opened 1♣ and EW never bid again. I am sure all this is likely.

I agree with Justin. It's pedantic. By the way, advanced or better players like Han and Arend need not take part as I pointed out in my first post. If you do, say something meaningful.

Merry Xmas!

Roland
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#11 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:29

cherdano, on Dec 25 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 25 2007, 01:08 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :(

Hi,

This is not possible given the bidding as I'm sure you know. Please stop being pedantic, thanks.

Well, given that the problem said "Can you ensure 10 tricks no matter how the EW cards are distributed?" I wouldn't call it pedantic.

I totally disagree and don't consider it a stretch at all when bridge authors say:

"Guarantee the contract against any distribution" for it to mean "Guarantee the contract against any distribution that is possible on the auction"

There are several of these "guarantee the contract" type problems where someone preempts and you can guarantee it assuming their 3H opener was not made on a 5 card suit or whatever.

Given that I presume experts such as fluffy and cherdano understand the spirit of this problem and what roland is trying to teach I would say nitpicking over a layout that is NOT possible at all takes away from the thread and is the definition of pedantic.
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#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:43

Jlall, on Dec 25 2007, 07:08 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :(

Hi,

This is not possible given the bidding as I'm sure you know. Please stop being pedantic, thanks.

The good line is not possible from the play on the first trick either.

EDIT: Well ok, anything is possible, and obviously clubs 1-6 are more likelly than hearts 7-0, but playing low club from KJ97xx is a bad play, as it is to pas with 7 hearts, so nothing extraterrestrial.
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#13 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 13:57

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 09:43 PM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 25 2007, 07:08 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 01:07 PM, said:

Hannie, on Dec 25 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Spoiler

Neither do I, They get 2 heart ruffs, 1 diamond and 1 club :(

Hi,

This is not possible given the bidding as I'm sure you know. Please stop being pedantic, thanks.

The good line is not possible from the play on the first trick either.

EDIT: Well ok, anything is possible, and obviously clubs 1-6 are more likelly than hearts 7-0, but playing low club from KJ97xx is a bad play, as it is to pas with 7 hearts, so nothing extraterrestrial.

You are wrong. If East really is looking at KJ97xx following small never costs.

1) The 8 is a singleton. Doesn't matter what you do.
2) The 8 is from a doubleton. Doesn't matter what you do.
3) The 8 is from Q108. It doesn't matter what you do.
4) The 8 is from Q108x (if they play 3rd). Doesn't matter what you do. South's ace is stiff.

So playing low is not bad play at all. Call me naive, but I really thought that at least an expert could do better than that.

Roland
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#14 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 14:06

haven't you ever led low from Qx? wow.

Anyway, I was not beign pedantic, in part I wondered if there was actually a 100% line I didn't find.

EDIT: whatever, sorry justin if you felt offended for me pointing out that. I almost wish you only had a bad day and didn't really wanna offend me, but I felt trully offended.
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#15 User is offline   Walddk 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 14:09

Fluffy, on Dec 25 2007, 10:06 PM, said:

haven't you ever led low from Qx? wow.

No, I never encountered a player who leads low from Q8 in partner's suit at trick 1.

Roland
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#16 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 14:11

Nice. I'd never find a play at the table like this, but I'm happy I saw it almost instantly given that someone told me there was a problem.
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#17 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 15:51

Spoiler


Solution above: I am sure the pedants have seen this line too. Don't argue with a pedant; you can't win and you just get pissed off.
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#18 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 16:38

The_Hog, on Dec 25 2007, 04:51 PM, said:

Spoiler


Solution above: I am sure the pedants have seen this line too. Don't argue with a pedant; you can't win and you just get pissed off.

Yeah, I missed it (actually, I saw it after somebody said something, but by then I didn't want to comment).

I thought this line would fail when opener had 6-5 in the minors, but you can afford to ruff the diamond high and still pull trump.
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#19 User is offline   dburn 

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Posted 2007-December-25, 17:28

Walddk, on Dec 25 2007, 11:33 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

S: 4S
Lead: C8

You are in 4♠ as South after East opened the bidding with a natural 1♣. West leads ♣8 and your 10 wins the first trick.

Not a bad contract. Can you ensure 10 tricks no matter how the EW cards are distributed?

No. The trumps might split badly - i.e. 3-2.
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#20 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2007-December-26, 06:26

The_Hog, on Dec 25 2007, 11:51 PM, said:

Spoiler


Solution above: I am sure the pedants have seen this line too. Don't argue with a pedant; you can't win and you just get pissed off.

RHO takes the C, returns S, you cross to hand with H A and ruff C.
RHO wins you H or D and plays a 4th Club and you A is ruffed by LHO?
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