[brisny65]

Since Puppet Stayman is used to ask the 1NT opener if he has a 5 card major, how does responder deny a 4 card major after opener denies a 5 card major. Partner opens 1NT and you hold ♠x/♥Kxx/♦Axxxx/♣Kxxx. If partner holds 5 hearts, your hand is great for 4♥. So you bid 2♣ to find out. Partner rebids 2♦, denying a 5 card major. What does responder bid now? 2♥ would show 4 spades, 2♠ would show 4 hearts, and 2NT would show 4 of both majors. What can responder bid to show that he never had a 4 card major, but was only looking for a 5-3 fit?

[glen]

You could check out this site:

Richard Pavlicek - Pavlicek System

Here we see that 3NT over 2♦ is to play, after not finding the major fit.

[jwmonty]

officeglen, on Dec 22 2007, 10:18 PM, said:

You could check out this site:

Richard Pavlicek - Pavlicek System

Here we see that 3NT over 2♦ is to play, after not finding the major fit.

Which serves primarily to tell us that Pavlicek has a crappy system, at least for hands like this one. Partner could have xxx/AQJx/KQxx/Ax and there are better contracts available than 3NT. Roth suggested long ago that after 1NT, 2C-2D responder should show shortness by jumping to 3S now. I play this way myself. In another thread, awm says that with this hand type, he either responds 2C puppeting partner to 2D and then jumps to 3H, showing a heart fragment with spade shortness to go with diamond length, or (if the longer minor is clubs) he responds 2NT, showing clubs, and then bids 3H showing fragment/shortness similarly. He also has special responses for 4441 types. His methods work too. The important thing is for responder to always have some way to show a short suit and suggest bailing out of notrump.

[barmar]

What you can also do is lie about your hearts. Bid 2♠, and opener will bid ♥ if he has 4 ♥. Because of your side shortness, your hand may play well in the Moysian.

This problem isn't really specific to Puppet Stayman. If you were playing regular Stayman, wouldn't you just jump straight to 3NT, unless you have a gadget to show shortness in a major?

[Tola18]

barmar, on Dec 23 2007, 03:15 AM, said:

What you can also do is lie about your hearts. Bid 2♠, and opener will bid ♥ if he has 4 ♥. Because of your side shortness, your hand may play well in the Moysian.

Yeah. I suspect many experts/advanced+ do voluntarily choose to play such a hand on the 4-3 Moysian fit, not only as an emergency exit.

The possibility to find a 53 fit being an extra plus.

[Blofeld]

As I was taught puppet stayman, 2♥ would deny four hearts but not promise four spades. There's plenty room enough to disentangle the two.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

A simple version of Puppet Stayman,
which gets played after a 2NT opener

3D - denies a 5 card mayor but
promises at least one 4 card mayor
responder bids the mayor he does
not want to play, to right side the
contract, in case he has no 4 card
mayor, he bids 3NT
3H - 5 hearts
3S - 5 spades
3NT no 4 card mayor

You can use this also after a 1 NT opener,
this would imply that Stayman always shows
at least inv. values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Blofeld, on Dec 23 2007, 02:12 PM, said:

As I was taught puppet stayman, 2♥ would deny four hearts but not promise four spades. There's plenty room enough to disentangle the two.

That is my prefered methods as well.

Over a 2NT opening, "Muppet Stayman" (I got it from Gerben but I don't know who invented is) in which a 3♥ rebid denies a 4-card major and 3NT shows 5 hearts, is better IMHO.

But over a 1NT opening, opener must rebid 2♦ with all hands that don't have 4-card major in order to catter for responder's weak hand with diamonds. This means that responder cannot rebid 3♦ with an invitational hand with both majors since that will take us too high if opener is minimal with no 4-card major.

[awm]

Muppet Stayman was named by me and my partner Greg Humphreys. I'm sure we didn't invent it though -- we stole it from Dano DeFalco and he probably didn't invent it either.

Romex Stayman is probably better in any case, I'm not sure why more people don't play it.

[ArtK78]

helene_t, on Dec 23 2007, 09:55 AM, said:

Over a 2NT opening, "Muppet Stayman" (I got it from Gerben but I don't know who invented is) in which a 3♥ rebid denies a 4-card major and 3NT shows 5 hearts, is better IMHO.

Pardon me for being dense, but I just do not see why reversing the meanings of 3♥ and 3NT is beneficial.

I see a disadvantage - it gives the opponents an opportunity to double 3♥ to show hearts. It would not be a lead directing double, since the hand that doubled is likely to be on lead.

In addition, you now need to use 4♦ over 3NT to transfer to hearts, taking away a natural 4♦ bid by responder.

Where is the advantage?

[helene_t]

ArtK78, on Dec 23 2007, 10:12 PM, said:

Where is the advantage?

Responder can use 3♠ over 3♥ as a minor suit inquiry.

[jdonn]

I think there is a much simpler solution to the example offered above of xxx AQJx KQxx Ax and x Kxx Axxxx Kxxx. I would show the hearts as a five card suit. If partner has three hearts, AND a hand that was interested in looking for a heart fit so it's not totally balanced, this looks like a very good time for a 4-3 fit.

I am much less likely to do that if playing puppet stayman over a 2NT opening, where my hand is all around stronger.

[blackshoe]

awm, on Dec 23 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

Romex Stayman is probably better in any case, I'm not sure why more people don't play it.

I agree that Romex Stayman is better. As to the why, I suspect some combination of "never heard of it", "isn't Romex a very hard system?" and "I have enough trouble with regular Stayman".

[TheoKole]

To describe this type of hand, my partner and I have an agreement, that a direct jump to 3 ♥ shows spade shortness and jump to 3 ♠ to shows heart shortness.

You could also jump to your shortness suit, but I found that this helps opps with lead directing doubles and sacrifices against your 3NT contracts. Partner may have AJ10 in your singleton suit with no other better contract than 3NT.

This fits in well with minor suit stayman which I would bid if I had 1-2-5-5 in the minors.

Since partner will usually know that I have 1-3-4-5 shape he will know the best contract tight away, but can always cuebid to find more information.

If he bids 3NT, he is much more likely to have a good 4 or 5 card major and will want a lead in the suit that you are short.

Theo

[benlessard]

What i like is


2Nt----3C
???


3D no M or 5S
3H-------4H may have 4S
3S-------4S
3Nt------5H


2Nt-----3C
3D------???

3H asking for 5S or signoff in 3Nt
3S 5h+4S
3Nt 5S+4H

This is slightly better then the romex where 3Nt show 4-4 in the M because it tend to give less lead directing

After 1Nt there is much better stuff then Romex if you often open 1nt with 5M like we do.

[blackshoe]

benlessard, on Dec 24 2007, 02:12 PM, said:

This is slightly better then the romex where 3Nt show 4-4 in the M because it tend to give less lead directing

I'm not quite sure I understand this. Can you elucidate, please?

Quote

After 1Nt there is much better stuff then Romex if you often open 1nt with 5M like we do.

Romex Stayman is a tool designed for a specific purpose in a specific situation. To say that there are better tools to use in different situations is like saying that a screwdriver is better for placing screws than is a hammer.

[kenrexford]

If you want to explore pattern, there is no version of a 3♣ Puppet Stayman (after a 2NT opening) that is superior to the one I prefer (I believe invented by Jim Batchelder). Romex is not as good.

3NT shows 4-4 majors.
3♠ shows five spades.
3♥ shows 4-5 hearts, not five spades. 3♠ by Responder asks if the hearts are 5-card.
3♦ shows 2-3 hearts and 2-4 spades. 3♥ asks if the spades are 2 (3NT), 3 (3♠), or 4 (4♣...4♠). 3♠ asks if the hearts are 2 (3NT) or 3 (4♣...4♥).

This response structure leaves two problem patterns for Responder.
1. With 5♥/4♠, the 3♦ response would be troubling, as you could not ask for both three hearts (possible) and four spades (possible). So, you bid 3♦ (transfer) and then 3♠.
2. With 5♠/3♥, Responder has a problem. No good option after 3♥, because Opener might have four hearts and then unknown spade length. So, you bid 3♥ as a transfer; Opener, with 5♥/2♠, is allowed to bid 3NT rather than 3♠.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Dec 25 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

If you want to explore pattern, there is no version of a 3♣ Puppet Stayman (after a 2NT opening) that is superior to the one I prefer

Are you sure?

3NT shows 5 hearts
3S shows 5 spades
3H shows 4 hearts (may have 4 spades, responder bids 3S to deny 4 spades, 3NT to show them)
3D shows what you have it as now

This seems better since you have more options over this 3NT and this 3H, both of which are less vague. For example, this way 3S over 3H can just be a slam try for hearts. Perhaps it's marginal differences, but you made a pretty strong statement

My preference is to play 3D then 3S as slam try 5-5 majors, 3NT over this 3D as 4-5 majors (3S to sign off), and just pay off to 3-5 in the majors. I would rather lose that hand (and even then usually get it right, only paying off to opener 5-2) than the 5-5 slam try.

[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Dec 25 2007, 04:37 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Dec 25 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

If you want to explore pattern, there is no version of a 3♣ Puppet Stayman (after a 2NT opening) that is superior to the one I prefer

Are you sure?

3NT shows 5 hearts
3S shows 5 spades
3H shows 4 hearts (may have 4 spades, responder bids 3S to deny 4 spades, 3NT to show them)
3D shows what you have it as now

This seems better since you have more options over this 3NT and this 3H, both of which are less vague. For example, this way 3S over 3H can just be a slam try for hearts. Perhaps it's marginal differences, but you made a pretty strong statement

My preference is to play 3D then 3S as slam try 5-5 majors, 3NT over this 3D as 4-5 majors (3S to sign off), and just pay off to 3-5 in the majors. I would rather lose that hand (and even then usually get it right, only paying off to opener 5-2) than the 5-5 slam try.

I like strong statements. LOL. Actually, the funny thing is that I have an even better version of Puppet Stayman than most folks could possibly conceive of, in a sense. All after showing a strong hand (22-23) and balanced (by Opener bidding 2NT as his second call to show this).

As a teaser, I have an approach wherein I can find any and all 5-3 major fits, regardless of who has the longer major, which is fairly easy. However, half of the time, I can also explore 4-4 minor fits after exploring the majors, below 3NT, after a 3♦ response by Opener.

Thus, for instance, consider 2♣-P-2♦-P-2NT-P-3♣(Mod. Puppet)-P-3♦-P-? Responder's 3M would be flags (3♥=4+ clubs, 3♠=4+ diamonds), and Opener could flag diamonds over 3♥ (3♠ to show diamonds, no 4-card club fit) 3with extras, 3NT with diamonds but minimal.

[barmar]

On a somewhat related note, this months Bridge World has an article on a Stayman variant for ensuring that you end up in the 9-card fit when opener has 4-4 majors and responder has 5-4 and at least invitational values.