[Fluffy]

Codo, on Dec 20 2007, 03:07 PM, said:

Pd has
Kxx, AKQJ, xx, Kxx and bids what after 3 Spade comes to him? 3 NT with a singelton stopper? Because he knows that you have a running suit and/or a stopper yourself?

He has
xxx,KQJx,Kxx,KQJ and you want him to bid what? And you want to play which contract?

If opponents go to the 3 level with 8 trumps and nothing I expect partner makes a responsive double to score +500 or more

[ASkolnick]

Don't agree that negative double does not show the unbid major, but that may be a matter of style.

Here is the advantage of playing a Strong NT. When partner opens one of a minor, he has one of two hand types:

1) Strong NT+
2) Unbalanced with a minor.

Cuebidding is much better, since it is safer. If partner has a good stopper, he could bid NT. With a partial stopper, we play the raise of the cuebid looks for a partial stopper.

As for Codo, asking what do you do with a bad 15-16 count over 1C-1S-2S-3S. The advantage now of cue-bidding is you have set-up a forcing auction, so with no stopper, you can actually pass and let partner make a decision. With a long club suit, you should be bidding over this.
However, over a negative double you have not established your side has maximum values.

However, once a negative double was made, how can you not bid 4H? Not that it will necessarily make, but you should know looking at your hand, you are probably not setting 4S anyway.

[ArtK78]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 20 2007, 09:48 AM, said:

ArtK78, on Dec 20 2007, 09:01 AM, said:

<snip>
Going back to the original hand.  Suppose North, instead of holding 1426, held:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ Kxx ♥ AKQJ ♦ xxx ♣ Kxx

Doesn't North have an automatic 4♥ call over 3♠ after South makes a negative double?  On a spade lead, both hearts and notrump make the same number of tricks - most often 9.
<snip>

But if South cue bids rather than makes a negative double, NS get to 3NT.

I admit that the cue bid is not perfect.  But it is less flawed than the negative double.

The answer is No, 3H is enough.

Sorry, but the neg. X could just be based
on 6/7HCP, depending on partnership
agreement, which means openers 16HCP
balanced hand (which he would have opened
with 1 NT anyway) is not enough to justify
a 4H call.

And after a 3H bid, responder can bid 3NT.

With kind regards
Marlowe

You can bid 3♥ if you want to, but the director will be called, as your bid is not sufficient over 3♠.

[ArtK78]

Fluffy, on Dec 20 2007, 10:36 AM, said:

Codo, on Dec 20 2007, 03:07 PM, said:

Pd has
Kxx, AKQJ, xx, Kxx  and bids what after 3 Spade comes to him? 3 NT with a singelton stopper? Because he knows that you have a running suit and/or a stopper yourself?

He has
xxx,KQJx,Kxx,KQJ  and you want him to bid what? And you want to play which contract?

If opponents go to the 3 level with 8 trumps and nothing I expect partner makes a responsive double to score +500 or more

I knew that sooner or later someone would bring up the fact that the opponents were at the 3 level on an 8 card fit.

That was not the point of my example. It was more of a question of what opener would do if faced with the problem - that partner had made a negative double and opener had a balanced hand with AKQJ of hearts.

In real life, the opponents shouldn't be jumping around with only an 8 card fit. But sometimes they do.

By the way, in both my example and Codo's example, the opener would have opened a strong 1NT (assuming that the partnership is playing a strong 1NT). Still, that is not the point.

[jdonn]

The negative double was a psych that caused north to later go wrong when south had an automatic 2♠ bid, second choice 2♦. There is no way north should have passed later, he easily easily easily should bid over the second double, but if he bid he would always be going to hearts anyway, so no matter how you slice it south is to blame.

[Apollo81]

I voted "this is beyond words" due to the wow negative double by South and the wow failure to bid 4♥ by North.

A Negative double shows an unbid major!

[bid_em_up]

ASkolnick, on Dec 20 2007, 10:52 AM, said:

Here is the advantage of playing a Strong NT. When partner opens one of a minor, he has one of two hand types:

1) Strong NT+
2) Unbalanced with a minor.

What happened to #3?

Balanced with less then NT opening strength.

[gwnn]

so you bid 4♥ whenever u have 4 hearts and a reasonably offensive hand?

[han]

I gave south all the blame. Not because north was without fault, I believe those that claim that north had a clear 5-level bid or even a clear 4H bid on the previous round. So maybe north made a bad decision, but south was just not playing bridge.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Dec 20 2007, 06:34 PM, said:

The negative double was a psych that caused north to later go wrong when south had an automatic 2♠ bid, second choice 2♦. There is no way north should have passed later, he easily easily easily should bid over the second double, but if he bid he would always be going to hearts anyway, so no matter how you slice it south is to blame.

I agree. This is in the 'beyond words' category from both players.

[Edmunte1]

I also voted 'beyond words', but let's just consider South had a normal hand for his hand (4hearts), i consider both passes with North hand really bad bidding. So the right choice should be 'beyond words and 110% North'

[han]

Edmunte1, on Dec 20 2007, 03:59 PM, said:

So the right choice should be 'South is beyond words and 110% North'

OK, I can live with that.

[gwnn]

what's the minimum hand with which you'd rebid 4♥ on N's hand? Obviously not 3433's or anything, a reasonable

2434?
1435?
1426?

Just about any hand?

Of course another question arises: what's the minimum hand with which you'd neg. X? I've seen differing views on that.

[han]

You could rebid 4H with 3433, for instance with xxx AKJx AJx AQx I would.

[gwnn]

i meant "obviously not 4♥" as in, obviously you would bid 4♥ only on hcp considerations, and even I can count hcp

[han]

OK, so you agree that it depends not only on shape but also on the number of HCP, and even on the location of those points.

With the actual hand you have a good shot at game opposite some fairly minimal hands with which partner partner would never act over 3S. With these same hands 3S would likely make. Those are good reasons to bid 4H.

I cannot imagine a 12-count 2-4-2-5 shape with which I would bid 4H.

[Edmunte1]

I would bid 4♥ with an unbalnaced hand that i would have bid at least a positive 3♥ bid over 2♠, considering you're playing 2NT good bad. So in other words a 5 1/2 losers hand. In the board you presented 4♥ call is close
I would double 1♠ with at least 7 useful hcp and good shape