[mikestar]

I had a thought about a structure of responses to Precision 1♣:

1♦=any shape, 0-4 or GF with no slam interest

1♥+=transfer, 5-8 or GF with slam interest.

Would this sort of structure be helpful in constructive sequences? In cases of intervention over the response?

If anyone finds this interesting, I'd like to hear ideas for developing the concept.

[the hog]

Too vunerable to pre emption to be effective.

Sorry that was a bit abrupt - so I have edited it.

If you bid 1D on say a 8-12 hand, you really are leaving yourself wide open to pre emption. Say next hand bids 3S, you are starting the bidding at a very high level, knowing only that you may have the values to be in game - nothing about distribution or anything else. What action should opener take, then only to find out responder had the 0-4 hand? It seems to me you are exacerbating the problems of a precision 1C opening rather than providing an enhancement. This is one reason I have given up playing a strong C system.

This does not apply as much to your 5-8 level bids., as at least you have a suit mentioned, and with a slammish hand responder can move.

Ron.

[csdenmark]

mikestar, on Feb 20 2004, 09:21 AM, said:

I had a thought about a structure of responses to Precision 1♣:

1♦=any shape, 0-4 or GF with no slam interest

1♥+=transfer, 5-8 or GF with slam interest.

Would this sort of structure be helpful in constructive sequences? In cases of intervention over the response?

If anyone finds this interesting, I'd like to hear ideas for developing the concept.

This is of no meaning. Opener can in normal precision have 16-40 points. Responder can inform of strength and distribution but have nothing to do with - has no knowledge - whether slam is relevant.

Responses 2 major normally shows 5+cd, 4-7HcP.

[inquiry]

Not to be pragmatic, but Claus, show me the hand where the 1!C opener can have 40 points. hehehe :-), how about 16 to 37 ?

[csdenmark]

Please wait until tomorrow - I will try to find odds for that! LOL

Have a nice day Ben - late night here.

[keylime]

2 way responses are growing in popularity for forcing clubs because more and more pairs are finding out that some hand types needs the weaker hand to declare. Key Lime Precision V14, which is in beta, implements for 1D/H/S, multiple meaning bids into the structure. The only problem that occurs with us is when LHO of the 1C bidder overcalls - with that, good agreements will normally get you to where you need to be and we have them. Otherwise, if RHO bids over the transfer positive bid, the responder of the 1C bidder steers the auction to where it ends up. It also acts as a barring bid because a lot of opponents won't bid over even 1D for fear that they are walking into a great hand (well there was one that went for a telephone number because pard just so happened to have a hand for slam, which went set due to foul distribution). So as much as I like the writers, I disagree with any overtone that 2 way bids are bad; 2 way bids with sound agreements really are the way to go because now you can do some interesting things that you couldn't do before.

An example of this:

1♣*(forcing)-1♥*(spades, clubs, or 15+ balanced)
1♠*(assuming spades, per agreement) - 2NT (balanced hand)

Often we've found that the opps in this auction tend to bid before the 1♥ bid. We use a categorical defense depending on the nature of defense: natural, double, anchor suit, random. Point is, is you want to use 2 way responses, the REBIDS of responder are critical because responder is in essence gaining an more equal right to the auction, unlike many forcing clubs that the opener controls the majority of the auctions (relay systems fall into this a lot).

With the proposed structure, the big headache is the fact you're giving RHO open season to preempt the heck out of you. Rather, use your responses to show a specific hand type, whether it's suit, 3 suiter, long major, whatever....now opener has an idea of what exactly you really have.

[mikestar]

This is the sort of stimulating discussion I was hoping to hear. After consideration, it is obvious that the 1♦ component is too vulnerable to premption. I put forth the idea off the top off my head, not at all sure it was any good.

My experience is that bad ideas often inspire others to share good ideas, so it's still a good outcome.

Any chance of seeing more detail on this aspect of KLP before v14 is published? The concept seems quite interesting.

Responder certainly can have slam interest opposite a 16-37 Precision 1♣. Slam interest opposite an unlimited bid means: there could be a slam if partner has a well-fitting, little bit better than minimum hand. If there is a slam opposite an only fair fitting minimum, this would be strong slam interest. (If there is a slam opposite a subminimum misfit, bid the darn thing already!) There are a fair number of 12-14's that fit the description of slam interest opposite 1♣, few 9-11's do.

[keylime]

For the record this is what we are currently using for the beta structure:

1D - 0-7 OR slam investigational hand, 15+
1H - xfer to spades, clubs, or 15+ balanced hand
1S - xfer to hearts, diamonds, or 12-14 balanced hand
1NT - GF two suiter, 5-5
2C - long major
2D - 8-11, balanced
2H - long minor
2S - long minor but a hand that is suited for Gambling 3NT
2NT - 3 suiter, 8-14

[csdenmark]

mikestar, on Feb 20 2004, 11:22 AM, said:

Responder certainly can have slam interest opposite a 16-37 Precision 1♣. Slam interest opposite an unlimited bid means: there could be a slam if partner has a well-fitting, little bit better than minimum hand. If there is a slam opposite an only fair fitting minimum, this would be strong slam interest. (If there is a slam opposite a subminimum misfit, bid the darn thing already!) There are a fair number of 12-14's that fit the description of slam interest opposite 1♣, few 9-11's do.

Yes Mike certainly. But the point is - it is not for a limited hand to decide what to do. The obligation for a limited hand is to clarify his holdings - therefore all asking bids are from unlimited to limited. You see after 1C open responder is asked and in other openings it is opener who is asked.

In standard Precision you have a multi response to 1C open as 1D:

- 0-7, any distribution
- any strength, 4441 distribution(1C-1D-??-Jump suit(single/void suit))

--------------------------------------------------------------
To Ben - resuming from yesterday:
I now see your point in 37 - never thought about it but Pavlicek calculator would not accept 16 cards required for 40. So it is Ben - a coke for you \_/

Odds for holding: 12-1-0-0 is - 0.00000003% - before dealing
Odds for holding: 13-0-0-0 is - 0.0000000002% - before dealing

Both to be opened as 1C - but some would prefer to open 6-7 in the suit.

AKQJTxxxxxxxx
Number of hands like above 1
Number of remaining hands 635013559599
Total number of bridge hands 635013559600
Percentage chance of this hand 0.000000000157
Odds against holding this hand 635013559599 to 1


AKQJ AKQ AKQ AKQ
Number of hands like above 1
Number of remaining hands 635013559599
Total number of bridge hands 635013559600
Percentage chance of this hand 0.000000000157
Odds against holding this hand 635013559599 to 1

As you see above it looks like the Pavlicek computing cannot handle these kind of special distributions.

Acc. to ACBL Encyclopedia percentage chance for 31-37 points is 0.00001

[luis]

I played a strong club where the 1d response was either 0-7 negative or 12+ GF, so the other bids showed 8-11 hands. Since a 8-11 hand is quite common we were able to describe points and distribution quickly and so make it less vulnerable to preempts.
After 1d when opener had a 19+ hand he would bid 1h and now 1s from responder was either 2nd negative or still 12+ :-)
Other rebids were 15-18 and now a relay by responder was a 12+ hand getting control.
It was a very good system for us and I was very happy with it.

[mikestar]

csdenmark, on Feb 20 2004, 01:25 PM, said:

mikestar, on Feb 20 2004, 11:22 AM, said:

Responder certainly can have slam interest opposite a 16-37 Precision 1♣. Slam interest opposite an unlimited bid means: there could be a slam if partner has a well-fitting, little bit better than minimum hand. If there is a slam opposite an only fair fitting minimum, this would be strong slam interest. (If there is a slam opposite a subminimum misfit, bid the darn thing already!) There are a fair number of 12-14's that fit the description of slam interest opposite 1♣, few 9-11's do.

Yes Mike certainly. But the point is - it is not for a limited hand to decide what to do. The obligation for a limited hand is to clarify his holdings - therefore all asking bids are from unlimited to limited. You see after 1C open responder is asked and in other openings it is opener who is asked.

But responder isn't asking with this structure, he's telling. The 1♦ response followed by a forcing rebid means "Game, but no slam if you're near minimum". The transfer followed by a forcing rebid over a signoff means "Game, slam may be in the picture if your'e minimum if we can find a fit."

Opener could find this information useful. That doesn't mean this is a good structure--the forum has convinced me that it is not. But it doesn't contradict your point about the unlimited hand asking. By the way a positive respones to 1♣ isn't all that limited, the theoretical range is 8-24 (assuming opener never opens 1♣ with less than 16).

[Free]

luis, on Feb 20 2004, 10:35 PM, said:

I played a strong club where the 1d response was either 0-7 negative or 12+ GF, so the other bids showed 8-11 hands. Since a 8-11 hand is quite common we were able to describe points and distribution quickly and so make it less vulnerable to preempts.
After 1d when opener had a 19+ hand he would bid 1h and now 1s from responder was either 2nd negative or still 12+ :-)
Other rebids were 15-18 and now a relay by responder was a 12+ hand getting control.
It was a very good system for us and I was very happy with it.

I'm playing some kind of Polish Club (modified, so it's better ), and I'm trying to insert transfer responses. It would look like this:

1♦ = negative (0-5) OR 6+HCP with 4+♥ OR balanced 12+ hands
1♥ = 6+HCP with 4+♠
(other responses aren't important here)

After
1♣ - 1♦
?

1♥ shows 18+HCP, all other bids are natural and show a natural opening. The relay structure used after that 1♥ rebid implies that the 1♠ rebid of responder is still two-way: 0-5HCP OR 12+ balanced
After the 1♥ bid, 1♠ shows 18+HCP, and we use the same relay scheme as after 1♣-1♦-1♥-1NT+, to make the system still pretty simple...

But I haven't tested it, still developing, but it seems I'm not the only one who would play this two-way stuff, even after a rebid of responder

Still, after a Strong Club opening, I prefer the 1♦ bid as GF, 1♠ double negative and all others semi positive. This takes off the heat of a 1♦ negative, and makes more use of all other bids for semi positives.