[neilkaz]

lilboyman, on Dec 13 2007, 09:45 AM, said:

whereagles, on Dec 13 2007, 04:08 AM, said:

lilboyman, on Dec 12 2007, 09:15 PM, said:

Question:  If, after 2S as an absolute sign-of, opponents now compete, can/will partner compete to 3S expecting 6 Spades for the 2S call?

No call in bridge is an absolute sign-off. Usually, 2♠ shows 5+ cards and 5-10 hcp. Opener can compete to 3♠ if he thinks his hand and the situation are appropriate.

Since poster indicated 2 Spades was a 100% sign-off, I was interested if poster's partner is allowed to compete over 3 Hearts.

With 10HCP and 5+ ♠ I might use NMF (prefer XYZ but rarely find anyone who plays it in MBC) to ask for 3 card support and invite game and PD's response should indicate whether he has that support and also whether he is max or min for his 1NT rebid.

So, if I bid 2♠ here playing nmf, I really am not interested in game nor getting a 3♠ raise if PD is max, has 3 ♠ and a ruffing value, but that wouldn't prevent him from competing to 3♠ if he wanted to.

[LH2650]

Full disclosure: I voted to pass.

I ran a simulation with 500 hands to test jdonn's assertion. The constraints were that opener had 12-14 HCP and distributions of either 1=3=4=5 or 1=4=3=5. 1N made 48% of the time, and 2S made only 8% of the time. A friend suggested that 2S wrong-sided the contract, and he was correct, but playing spades from the notrump side gained only 1%.

[MickyB]

Held a vaguely similar hand today - KJ9xx Kxx Jxx Tx.

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(P), 1NT-(P)-?

Partly inspired by this thread I bid 2♠, both contracts were one off, pard didn't seem to appreciate my 2♠ rebid though!

[neilkaz]

At the table I was concerned about having two possibly wide open red suits and that PD could lose access to my ♠ via a holdup from my LHO so I having strong trumps I bid 2♠.

This proved most unfortunate when PD tabled ♠9♥QJ83♦T93♣AKQ83

As the card lay, 2♠ is always down 2 on good defence and I butchered the hand for down 3 ! 1NT makes except for double dummy defence and no opps managed to find the only setting line.

I am a strong believer in rebidding 1NT with a stiff only as a last resort to tell the least damaging lie to PD. Thus, with 5 good ♣ I would rebid 2♣ as opener here.

At the moment I think I should pass 1NT with this hand, and especially if pick up PD's (several lately have) can have a stiff and rebid 1NT.

Deal Master Pro has arrived and hopefully I'll figure out how to use it and do some sims.

.. neilkaz ..

[gwnn]

neilkaz, on Dec 15 2007, 03:01 AM, said:

Thus, with 5 good ♣ I would rebid 2♣ as opener here.

Me too. (and usually I get nausea from rebidding a 5 card minor!)

[han]

MickyB, on Dec 14 2007, 07:25 PM, said:

Held a vaguely similar hand today - KJ9xx Kxx Jxx Tx.

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(P), 1NT-(P)-?

Partly inspired by this thread I bid 2♠, both contracts were one off, pard didn't seem to appreciate my 2♠ rebid though!

I think this hand is very different Mike.

[neilkaz]

Hannie, on Dec 14 2007, 08:07 PM, said:

MickyB, on Dec 14 2007, 07:25 PM, said:

Held a vaguely similar hand today - KJ9xx Kxx Jxx Tx.

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(P), 1NT-(P)-?

Partly inspired by this thread I bid 2♠, both contracts were one off, pard didn't seem to appreciate my 2♠ rebid though!

I think this hand is very different Mike.

Yes in this hand, there's no concern about ♦ but maybe a bit about ♥ or even ♣ but I prefer to just pass PD's 1NT and also let the lead come to him needing only 7 tricks, IMHO

[1eyedjack]

Whether rebidding 1NT with a singleton is a good idea on certain hands may be a function of whether partner is expected to pull it back to the suit in which you hold the singleton on only a 5 card suit. On the other hand, whether you should pull the 1NT back to a 5 card suit may be a function of the hand types containing singleton support on which partner would rebid 1NT.

I am not sure which of those issues should be decided first, but it occurs to me that on neilkaz's actual hand I would be more inclined to rebid 2C than 1NT if partner is expected to rebid 2S on a 5 card suit (over 1NT), and more inclined to rebid 1NT than 2C if partner will only pull from 1N on a distributional hand.

It may be difficult to factor in suit quality to a simulation.

[the hog]

Edmunte1, on Dec 10 2007, 08:33 PM, said:

2♠ is definitely the percentage bid

Absolute bullshit!
This is very close either way. If my pd opened 1NT 12-14, I would transfer to S. This situation is analogous, but my pd will not have 3 card S support here unless 3334 or other weak S good other suited hands, so I am passing 1NT.

[Ronald_21]

Last night I did a simulation (5000 hands) with the 12-14 hand holding 1 to 3 spades, 2 to 4 hearts, 2 to 4 diamonds and 4 or 5 clubs.

It appeared that there was not much difference between 1NT and 2S if partner would never raise 1S with a 3-card spade support.

Obviously the more partner raises 1S with 3-card support, the more 1NT becomes the superior contract.

[ArtK78]

Ronald_21, on Dec 15 2007, 05:45 AM, said:

Last night I did a simulation (5000 hands) with the 12-14 hand holding 1 to 3 spades, 2 to 4 hearts, 2 to 4 diamonds and 4 or 5 clubs.

It appeared that there was not much difference between 1NT and 2S if partner would never raise 1S with a 3-card spade support.

Obviously the more partner raises 1S with 3-card support, the more 1NT becomes the superior contract.

That simulation supports my experience.

In my parnerships, we raise on 3 card support with any excuse. So we often pass the 1NT rebid with a 5 card spade suit.

[neilkaz]

ArtK78, on Dec 15 2007, 02:03 PM, said:

Ronald_21, on Dec 15 2007, 05:45 AM, said:

Last night I did a simulation (5000 hands) with the 12-14 hand holding 1 to 3 spades, 2 to 4 hearts, 2 to 4 diamonds and 4 or 5 clubs.

It appeared that there was not much difference between 1NT and 2S if partner would never raise 1S with a 3-card spade support.

Obviously the more partner raises 1S with 3-card support, the more 1NT becomes the superior contract.

That simulation supports my experience.

In my parnerships, we raise on 3 card support with any excuse. So we often pass the 1NT rebid with a 5 card spade suit.

My dad commonly raised with 3 card support and absolutely hated if I rebid a 5 card major in this situation and especially since we played MP and he was hoping 1NT might take 8 or even 9 tricks if the defence wasn't spot on or the cards were lucky. He never bought the arguement that 2♠ outscores 1NT since 8 tricks and NT outscores 8 at ♠.

Most of my current PD's hate giving and receiving 3 card support and if playing with them, I'd prefer to make the same 2♠ rebid that I made with the text hand, especially if we discussed to try really hard to avoid rebidding 1NT with a stiff.