[Walddk]

Edmunte1, on Dec 6 2007, 04:45 PM, said:

I agree with 1NT due to bad shape and lack of intermediattes. 2♠ shows 15++ and 5+♠ me (GOSH in passout seat can be about 2 hcp weaker).
Now i'll bid 3♣ (fit in spade, slam interest)

I like that. 3♣ must indeed show a fit for spades and a maximum. That's what I have.

Roland

[Apollo81]

Yes, clearly worth a 3♣ bid here since you have the best possible hand for your bidding.

[whereagles]

Unless you play that NT bids promise stoppers, I don't see why 3♣ must show a fit.

[finally17]

I voted 1N. I trust partner to find another call if he had an actual reason to bid, in which case we won't miss anything. Even if he's got 10-11 (and I agree with those who let him have as little as 8), 1N will be high enough.

[Walddk]

whereagles, on Dec 6 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

Unless you play that NT bids promise stoppers, I don't see why 3♣ must show a fit.

If 1NT does not promise a club stop, you surely must have a better bid available. OK, for the sake of argument let's assume that it doesn't, what else can 3♣ mean?

RHO opened a natural (4+) 1♣. What do you want 3♣ to be if not a fit for spades? I assume we agree that, for a couple of reasons, it can't be a suit.

Roland

[helene_t]

whereagles, on Dec 6 2007, 05:43 PM, said:

Unless you play that NT bids promise stoppers, I don't see why 3♣ must show a fit.

Of course it promises stoppers. Well maybe I would bid 2NT on Axx-Axx-AKx-xxxx but then I would have chosen the smallest lie. And I'm not even sure I would bid 2NT with that hand, might bid 2♣.

[han]

Jlall, on Dec 6 2007, 10:57 AM, said:

Han I don't agree with your logic on 2S instead of 1N or 2N because its a heavy 1N or a light 2N. The hand is still clearly NT oriented and loses a lot of its value playing in a suit. I think bidding some number of NT is clear, even if you cant quite show your values as well as a 2S bid.

OK. thanks for the feedback.


Regarding the second part of the question, I think it is a "3C wtp" hand. Partner has shown a strong hand (I'd say at least a nice 16-count) and we havee great support and good cards.

[benlessard]

Close call between 1Nt and 2Nt.

Usually over 1C X 1Nt is stronger then over 1M X. (bidding a 3 card suit at the 1 level with weaker hand give me no problem at all). So with a partner that plays the same way ill bid 1Nt. Otherwise ill bid 2Nt.

[Walddk]

Hannie, on Dec 6 2007, 07:57 PM, said:

Regarding the second part of the question, I think it is a "3C wtp" hand. Partner has shown a strong hand (I'd say at least a nice 16-count) and we havee great support and good cards.

So you are saying that 1♠ in the balancing seat could be up to 15. Fine with me, but I am not sure everyone agrees. I could be wrong but my impression is that most people think it has a lower limit in 4th.

Roland

[han]

Sure, maybe I should have said that for me it is a wtp-hand. Just like there are wild differences in style for advancing overcalls just like there are huge differences in style for balancing overcalls. For me both of these are quite wide ranging.

I don't know what you mean by "most people". Probably most bridge players have never even thought about this and only worry about what snacks there are on the table.

If you mean experts, there is probably a big difference between many European countries (where overcalls are traditionally more limited) and North American (where overcalls are traditionally quite wide ranging).

[whereagles]

Walddk, on Dec 6 2007, 04:23 PM, said:

If 1NT does not promise a club stop, you surely must have a better bid available. OK, for the sake of argument let's assume that it doesn't, what else can 3♣ mean?

Well, if 1NT doesn't necessarily promise a stopper (just hcp and shape), then it makes sense that 3♣ asks for one. With spades you can simply support.

[beatrix45]

Lots of choices, all of them pretty close in merit as far as I can see. For what its worth:

1. 2NT against stronger opponents - two ways to earn a decent, hard won swing - a. a close game where well placed cards (♣KJ) play a key role.
b. 2NT making or down one versus opponents 3♣ make

2. 1NT against weaker opponents. Play it safe for a plus score. Assume most games will be bid anyway since 1NT over 1♣ shows some cards.

3. 1♠ or 2♠ if we are behind. Hope for some swing. I see this as fairly desperate with 4-3-3-3 distribution.