[bid_em_up]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 4 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Dec 4 2007, 03:42 PM, said:

Of course, its a 3rd/4th seat opening, the presumption is you are referring to 1st/2nd seats.

jmoo.

It's no more a 3rd seat opening than it is a 1st/2nd seat opening.

Opening light in third seat is (should be!) best done for lead directional reasons, (that's why many people switch to 4-card majors in 3rd seat, so you can open 1S on AKJx Kxx xxx Jxx). There's really no point at all in opening random balanced rubbish opposite a passed hand.

4th seat is a difficult problem. At IMPS I would still pass, as my expectation is negative. At club matchpoints I have painfully learnt never, ever to pass a hand out in 4th seat, I always get a bad result.

Sorry, I disagree.

Of course, I tend to play sound openings in 1st or 2nd seats, so this hand is an automatic opening in 3rd/4th to protect our partscores, which has something to do with that statement.

But...if you (or your partner) wont open this hand in 1st/2nd, and your partner (or you) won't open it in 3rd/4th, how many hands do you pass out? Where you should have been plus on the board? I'm just curious.

[whereagles]

I'd open it. Just 'cos.

[keylime]

Even with a 10-13 NT at white, and as aggressive as I am opening 4cM, I pass. This hand is a hand I want to table and not open. I'd expect on K&R to be maybe 9.25 to 9.5 playing points tops, and that's being generous.

[pclayton]

When I open in 3rd seat, there's a purpose to the call, other than to demonstrate I'm a macho mo-fo. I look to finding a decent partial or getting partner off to the right lead. Opening seems to do neither.

OTOH, bidding might get the opponents into the auction easily and may have a vulnerable 4♥. Does bidding make it more or less likely they will bid the game? I think the answer is no, but I guarantee the hand will be easier for them to play.

[kenrexford]

Easy opening of 1♣.

I have no rebid problems.
I have three controls and two quick-tricks.
My club suit is real.
I have a four-card major.
I have three really good spades, the other major.
1♣ is just enough lower than 1♦ that partner has more space to bid balanced hands (1NT as a response to 1♣ is stronger than 1NT after 1♦, such that partner will not bid 2NT too much).

Plus, partner expects me to open this type of hand for these reasons (critical point).

[jtfanclub]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 4 2007, 01:31 PM, said:

- they believe this hand is worth a 12-count (as you state you do)

I do not believe it's worth a 12 count, which is why I don't open it in standard (unless I'm playing the opps instead of the cards).

However, NT hands frequently aren't worth their count. They may be 4333, or 4432 with crappy suits (as this one is), or 5422 with *really* crappy suits (I don't usually open 5422 1NT unless the suits are crappy). I've never taken too close a look at it, but I'd guess that the K&R Evaluation of my average 12 HCP 1NT opener is around 2 points lower than my average 12 HCP suit bids.


http://www.gg.caltec...~jeff/#software

This hand is a 9.4 (DK 10+) in K&R. A more typical 12 hcp 1NT hand:

Axx
KJxx
QJxx
Jx

Is a 10.45 (DK 11-). Still well below 12. A typical 12 hcp 1♥ hand:

AJx
KJxxx
QJxx
x

That's a 12.2 (DK 11+). So from a K&R standpoint, calling this a 1NT opening is a small lie, but calling it a 1 of a suit bid is a bigger lie.

Besides- it's not like there's a suit I want to show off.

[mike777]

In the OP nowhere do they ask or mention anything about a 12 count. I do think it is safe to assume some sort of a 2/1 standard system though.

I don't understand all this chatter about whether this is a 12 count or not, why is that important? If it this is an important issue then you need to state why a 12 count matters.

If you open light then this is fine who needs a 12 count...if you open sound, I mean sound, then you need much more than 12 and this is not close. IF you open random then just say so.

[mikeh]

I'd open it playing in my current partnerships because we play either 10-12 or 11-14 1N, and this hand looks like it belongs in those ranges... altho this is a clear rock bottom minimum in the 11-14 range.... But otherwise, this is a pass, and a pass in all seats.

[Fluffy]

Many of the points do not apply on this hand, spaceially about quick tricks

S - W - N - E
1♣-6♦-X-ps
ps-ps

---

opening this hand led to -1090.

[ArtK78]

FrancesHinden, on Dec 4 2007, 10:26 AM, said:

4th seat is a difficult problem. At IMPS I would still pass, as my expectation is negative. At club matchpoints I have painfully learnt never, ever to pass a hand out in 4th seat, I always get a bad result.

This is an interesting point of view.

The other night I was playing in an ACBL matchpoint pairs game on BBO with my regular partner. We open light (10 HCP for one of a suit, 10-12 1NT) in 1st and 2nd seats nonvulnerable. On board 1, no one vul, the bidding was pass-pass to me. I looked at a balanced 12 count including Axxx of spades. I knew that my partner was limited to 9 HCP, so I chose to pass. The hand was passed out and we got over 90% of the matchpoints.

Most standard bidders would have opened my hand. I knew that my side had a maximum of 21 HCP between us, and possibly less. I didn't know that the hand would be passed out, but I did not want to give the opponents a blueprint on how to play the hand.

So, it is not always wrong to pass out a hand (then again, my LHO, who was in 4th seat, probably agrees with Frances).

[Al_U_Card]

My only consideration would be to not open this in 4th seat, but with 15 pearson points, I would on principle. Rule of 20, a rebid (2 actually) and 2 def. QT's, it is a 1 ♣ anytime....perhaps this helps to explain my results...

[ArtK78]

Al_U_Card, on Dec 4 2007, 04:06 PM, said:

My only consideration would be to not open this in 4th seat, but with 15 pearson points, I would on principle. Rule of 20, a rebid (2 actually) and 2 def. QT's, it is a 1 ♣ anytime....perhaps this helps to explain my results...

This hand has 15 Pearson Points only if you believe that it has 12 HCP. I don't think that it does.

[ArtK78]

Jlall, on Dec 4 2007, 04:08 PM, said:

Art, Frances specifically said she always gets a bad result in a club game at MP when she passes out a hand in FOURTH seat. Your story reinforces that point.

No doubt true. However, the key decision that led to the passout was mine, as I had the best hand at the table. As might be suspected, partner had a maximum first seat pass. But he had a doubleton spade and it is virtually impossible for our side to go plus on the hand.

[kenrexford]

Fluffy, on Dec 4 2007, 03:43 PM, said:

opening this hand led to -1090.

If you add the heart Q-J to partner's hand, he has ♠AKJ ♥QJxx ♦QJ ♣J9xx, a 15-count. I doubt anyone would pass this, and yet 6♦X makes because of a freak layout. So, I'm not sure that's a good argument.

[ArtK78]

One does not double slam bids based on high card points when it is clear that the hand has freakish distribution.

Tricks beat slams - not high card points.

[kenrexford]

ArtK78, on Dec 4 2007, 05:11 PM, said:

One does not double slam bids based on high card points when it is clear that the hand has freakish distribution.

Tricks beat slams - not high card points.

A-K combos look like tricks.

I'd say that one does double 6♦, and expects a wall of -1090's.

[1eyedjack]

The suggestion is that it is the decision to open that led to the -1090 score. It is unclear to me that passing would have ended differently.

[han]

What, nobody opens 1S in third?