[beatrix45]

Scoring: IMP

1♥-P-???

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Simple bread-and-butter bidding situation. Playing SAYC BBO style - i.e. 1NT non-forcing and 2♥ not 'constructive'. Your bid? How much, if any, does vulnerability and type of scoring affect your bid?

[P_Marlowe]

2H.

What else, espesially playing
with a unknown partner?

I have a fit, I show the fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArcLight]

An obvious 1NT bid so I get to play the contract!

Seriously, I would bid 2♥ to show my support. I just hope pard doesn't get too excited. Offsetting this pard will know I have at least 3 trumps. And it may shut out a minor suit overcall by LHO after 1NT.

Playing with pick up pards I am routinely subjected to them not supporting my trump suit.

"I don't like to support with fewer than 4 cards" I was told when they didn't support my 5 card suit was the most recent line.

[hrothgar]

I can live with either 1N or 2♥

The arguments in favor of 2♥ are fairly obvious. The reasons to suggest 1N are

1. The poor quality of the hearts
2. The 4333 shape
3. Slow tricks
4. A positional Spade stop

I would probably bid 2♥, but wouldn't be at all upset if partner chose a 1NT bid. (If we belong in Hearts, partner will probably make another bid)

[ArtK78]

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts. I am not among them. I bid 2♥.

[jtfanclub]

ArtK78, on Nov 19 2007, 12:10 PM, said:

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts. I am not among them. I bid 2♥.

OBAR convinces me that 1NT is the right bid with non-forcing NT. We might get the bid if I make a 1NT call. We might get it at 2♥ if I make a 1NT call and later bid 2♥.

But I think a vast majority of the time that I make an immediate 2♥ call, the opponents aren't going to pass it out (and it should probably be 100%). I don't think either I or my partner has enough information to know what to do over, say, a 2♠ call by balancer.

The old saying is that you need to give the opponents the last guess. By not showing the fit, the opponents might get the last guess. If you show the fit, you're almost certain to end up with the last guess.

(Some comments provided by Devil's Advocate, LTD).

[ArtK78]

jtfanclub, on Nov 19 2007, 03:30 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 19 2007, 12:10 PM, said:

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts.  I am not among them.  I bid 2♥.

OBAR convinces me that 1NT is the right bid with non-forcing NT. We might get the bid if I make a 1NT call. We might get it at 2♥ if I make a 1NT call and later bid 2♥.

But I think a vast majority of the time that I make an immediate 2♥ call, the opponents aren't going to pass it out (and it should probably be 100%). I don't think either I or my partner has enough information to know what to do over, say, a 2♠ call by balancer.

The old saying is that you need to give the opponents the last guess. By not showing the fit, the opponents might get the last guess. If you show the fit, you're almost certain to end up with the last guess.

(Some comments provided by Devil's Advocate, LTD).

And there are many that say raise with a raise.

If you bid 1NT, you may not get the chance to bid hearts later. The opponents may intervene over 1NT and you will be out of the auction. That may or may not be a good thing, but most of the time it is not a good thing to let partner know that you have support.

I have a one-bid hand. I intend to make one bid and get out of the auction.

[gwnn]

Partner is always very happy to hear you have a fit. He's rejoicing! He will hug you! The news of a fit is the greatest news ever! (except when he's psyching, but that's another story)

2♥

[Mr. Dodgy]

Pass

[mikeh]

jtfanclub, on Nov 19 2007, 03:30 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Nov 19 2007, 12:10 PM, said:

There are many players who like to bid 1NT on these types of hands and then take a preference to hearts.  I am not among them.  I bid 2♥.

OBAR convinces me that 1NT is the right bid with non-forcing NT. We might get the bid if I make a 1NT call. We might get it at 2♥ if I make a 1NT call and later bid 2♥.

But I think a vast majority of the time that I make an immediate 2♥ call, the opponents aren't going to pass it out (and it should probably be 100%). I don't think either I or my partner has enough information to know what to do over, say, a 2♠ call by balancer.

The old saying is that you need to give the opponents the last guess. By not showing the fit, the opponents might get the last guess. If you show the fit, you're almost certain to end up with the last guess.

(Some comments provided by Devil's Advocate, LTD).

I would turn your argument on its head.

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 2♠ (and there is no hand with which he bids 2♠ over 2♥ and not over 1N), I am well and truly screwed, and so is partner. He can't bid 3♥ on a moderate hand with 6 hearts because we have deprived him of knowledge of the fit.

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 3 minor, again, and for similar reasons, partner is screwed.

So put me down for the raise. I am, btw, not with Justin in terms of accepting a try. While I will miss some games he'll reach, I'll stay appropriately low more often... plus, at imps, if partner can make game opposite this hand and these trump, I'd much prefer that he not make a game try at all...just bid game.

Which, obviously, is going to be problematic for him when we deny a fit.

Finally: the whole point about not making the last guess: it is by denying support that we create the guesswork for our side. By bidding a straightforward, natural, accurate 2♥ we afford partner (and ourselves) less need to 'guess'.

[beatrix45]

Thanks everyone for your responses. The hand was played six times in a BBO indy with the following outcomes:

2♠ making three by EW for -140 for NS. Three times
2♥ down one by NS for -50 for NS. One time
4♥ down three by NS for -150 for NS. One time
1NT down two by NS for -100 for NS. One time.

It is harder for for EW to enter the auction when South responds 1NT. Winning the 'race to one notrump' is only a good idea when one is non-vul, i.e. fifty a trick(-50 vs-90 or -100 vs -120). Also, much more important at MP's than IMPs.

[brianshark]

To be honest, I'm in the 1NT camp.

The fact is, I'm not all that bothered about showing my fit here. I dont think we even belong in hearts (at the 2 or 3 level) unless partner has some shape, and with shape he'll bid again.

If I bid 1NT and the opps interfere 2♠ or 3[minor], then I'm not so sure I want partner competing to the 3 level, even with a 9 card fit. The LOTT adjustments for this balanced hand with soft values and poor trumps suggest defending rather than competing, unless partner has exceptional shape, in which case he'll be bidding again without our help.

If we have a game, I think it's just as likely to be in 3NT as we have no ruffing value whatsoever (again, unless partner has a bit of shape).

I'm pretty much going to treat this hand as a 4432 6 count with a doubleton ♥.

[han]

Jlall, on Nov 20 2007, 05:00 AM, said:

mikeh, on Nov 19 2007, 06:19 PM, said:

So put me down for the raise. I am, btw, not with Justin in terms of accepting a try.

Sorry I realize my post was very unclear because I worded it badly, I meant that on hands where i will not accept a game try after bidding 1N ie

1H p 1N p
2d p 2H p
2N p ?

I would bid 3H.

If that is the case then I would like to bid 1N since partner is going to bid 1H p 2H p 4H with those hands routinely and there wont be any hope of making it if I have xxx Qxx Jxx Qxxx.

Another way for me to word it is that if partner is going to bid 1H p 2H p 4H I like my 2H bid to offer some hope of making it opposite a hand he would not have jumpshifted with.

With this actual hand I would not accept a game try after 1H p 2H p since this hand is pretty bad obviously

SO am I right in that you would bid 2H with an "honest" raise but 1NT with a hand that many beginners would pass?

[neilkaz]

2♥ 60 Support with support, albeit pathetic support and 4333

1NT 40 This is a flat 6 count with three weak trumps and you most definately
don't want PD to make a game try and can compete to 2♥ over 2m
anyhow.

Pass 0 Passing with 6 protected HCP is too cautious to be winning bridge in
the long run, IMHO


.. neilkaz ..

[cherdano]

mikeh, on Nov 19 2007, 05:19 PM, said:

If I bid 1N and LHO bids 2♠ (and there is no hand with which he bids 2♠ over 2♥ and not over 1N),

One can argue what is right, but I think your statement is very wrong for a lot of players. There are many hands with which they would "prebalance" (OBAR and all that) over 1H p 2H but pass over 1H p 1N.
(And before you start your "if they bid that badly, I am going to win anyway" refrain, I will offer a bet that there are world class players who bid more aggressively over 1H p 2H than over 1H p 1N, at least when they have spades and heart shortness. )

[brianshark]

I've also heard it called BIDS (balancing in direct seat) and it's based on the principle of presumed fit. If responder raises, they have a fit, increasing the likelihood of us having a fit. If they instead respond 1NT, they are less likely to have that 8-card fit so in turn, the 2♠ bid becomes riskier.

[brianshark]

I googled but I don't know if this link works. Try it. It's from Cohen's LOTT book (chapter 4):

http://books.google.com/books?id=tyZFm-qc5...lc3N_M#PPA60,M1