[jtfanclub]

mikeh, on Nov 21 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 21 2007, 01:21 AM, said:

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

There are lots of hands where I would limit raise in competition where I would not limit raise outside of competition. For one thing, I've lost my ability to make a trash 1NT response, so the lower range of the 2♥ call is lower. For another thing, my partner has more information after the opponent's overcall. Lastly, it's more likely that the rest of the auction will have more interference, so it's more important for me to get this hand off my chest in one bid.

I guess I don't see the point in bidding 2♥ here. If the bidding goes...

1♥ (2♣) 2♥ (3♣)
3♥ (P)

Are you going to bid 4?

[mikeh]

jtfanclub, on Nov 26 2007, 03:18 PM, said:

mikeh, on Nov 21 2007, 02:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 21 2007, 01:21 AM, said:

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

There are lots of hands where I would limit raise in competition where I would not limit raise outside of competition. For one thing, I've lost my ability to make a trash 1NT response, so the lower range of the 2♥ call is lower. For another thing, my partner has more information after the opponent's overcall. Lastly, it's more likely that the rest of the auction will have more interference, so it's more important for me to get this hand off my chest in one bid.

I guess I don't see the point in bidding 2♥ here. If the bidding goes...

1♥ (2♣) 2♥ (3♣)
3♥ (P)

Are you going to bid 4?

no

In the B/I forum, maybe the better answer is 'yes, because I suspect partner has extra values for 3♥', but in an expert partnership, no because partner is NOT trying for game: we use double of 3♣ as a general gametry, with 3♦ as a specific game-try, genuine 2nd suit. And my partners tend to bid 3♥ on these auctions with hands on which we are happy to make 9 tricks, not on hands where we will usually make 10 opposite a heavy single raise, which is what I have, in my view.... but it is close (to an original limit, not to bidding 4 over 3).

[vang]

mikeh, on Nov 21 2007, 09:41 PM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 21 2007, 01:21 AM, said:

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

And the fact that Justin, Hannie and I (just to name only those who said no) say no means that it is not, viewed objectively, a 'clear limit raise'.

That is NOT the same as saying that for jdonn or Frances (and others) it is not a clear limit raise: just a recognition that it is unsafe and unfair to base a criticism of East's bidding on the basis that it is 'clear'.

To me, it is a maximum single raise... a super-max, if you want. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I know where, in my world, the line exists on this hand. That some superb players draw the line elsewhere doesn't make their placement of the line 'clear' other than to themselves.

Now, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that some good players will bid 2♥ as East, then West should 'clearly' cater to this with his monster... and, of course, he doesn't need everything that east has in order for slam to be a good spot.

Change the trump A to the Queen and I suspect that josh and Frances would join the host of single raisers, and I'd like to be in 6♥.. altho, admittedly, that contract is far less secure than with the actual hands due to the possibility of a spade ruff.

I blame West 90% and East only 10% simply because he could, not should, have saved West from his pessimism.

i agree with mikeh here and i'd like to ask if

qxxx
a10x
kx
xxxx

or
qxxxx
a10x
kx
xxx

are also an obvious limit raise?

[kfay]

95% W 5% E

I wouldn't make a limit raise with the E hand since it didn't occur to me when I looked at the OP but after reading the responses I don't have a problem with a limit raise... I just wouldn't think about it for long.

I put most of the blam with W because... man 4♥ is just awful.

[neilkaz]

I have a different opinion than some of the experts here and for me, the east hand has 11 support points. 9 HCP and two doubletons with ATx in trumps, and perhaps useful ♠. This is a limit raise for me.

Playing Q bid = limit raise+, I can stretch a bit here and make borderline limit raises since opener can bid 3♦ as a game try to ask me how good my limit raise is, but I don't think this hand is a stretch, although it certainly is a minimal limit raise.

That being said, opener still is mostly at fault here ! Opener's hand is a monster and as pointed out by others, change dummies ace of trumps to a queen and slam still makes ! Opener should use some imagination and start Q bidding below 4♥.

.. neilkaz ..