[jocdelevat]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 1♥    2♣    2♥    3♣
 4♥    Pass  Pass  5♣
 5♥    Pass  Pass  Pass
 

[inquiry]

The auction could go differently in a couple of places.

On is over 5♣, WEST could make a forcing pass (at these colors pass has to be forcing) and then cue-bid 5♦ should EAST double. East could cue-bid 5♦ instead of doubling the forcing pass as well.

But this ignores the huge problem. 4♥ could and should have ended the auction with no forcing pass trick to suggest slam ambition. So something went terribly wrong BEFORE the opponents bid 5♣. What that was, it turns out, was the leap to 4♥. East has described his hand and limited it with 2♥, making WEST the captain. 4♥ ended the exploration. West could do a lot of things over 3♣, 4♣ for instance, or 3♦. If WEST shows slam interest, EAST has a fairly good hand for his 2♥ raise (actually on this auction for me, a very nice hand).

So I lay 100% of the blame on WEST, zero on EAST. Hope you where EAST this time, but WEST had two chances to show his real extras, 4♥ just doesn't get the job done.

[jdonn]

inquiry, on Nov 21 2007, 12:44 AM, said:

So I lay 100% of the blame on WEST, zero on EAST. Hope you where EAST this time, but WEST had two chances to show his real extras, 4♥ just doesn't get the job done.

WOW, I was thinking of going 100-0 the other way. Doesn't east have a clear limit raise? I don't even need to ask the question, yes he does. I can't go 100-0 since I agree that 4♥ was hasty, but I would go 1/3 west 2/3 east. West just rushed and usually it wouldn't matter. East made a clear underbid.

[han]

This is not a limit raise for me.

[mike777]

assuming random super expert pick up partner
1) hate 2h....
2) hate 4h

[awm]

I'll go with 50-50.

East should have made a limit raise. Give west a small club instead of the ace and slam is still quite good...

West should have tried over 3♣. Give east a small club instead of one of the spades and slam is still quite good...

They both underbid!

[dicklont]

West should have bid 4♣ instead of 4♥. It's free!
East could have bid 3♣ (fit, limit or better) to show quite a decent hand, that would be an option because he has no wastage in clubs. If East knows West is a conservative bidder he should have done that.

West 80% East 20%.

[whereagles]

Jlall, on Nov 21 2007, 07:07 AM, said:

jdonn, on Nov 21 2007, 01:21 AM, said:

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

no

You're right, he's got a GAME FORCING raise. (i.e. 7 losers)

But ok, maybe to count as 7 losers is optimistic. Still, definitely worth more than a mere 2H raise.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 2H is fairly conservative, and if you
feel, that this hand is inv., that would
be ok, but 2H is ok as well
=> holding this hand, you would like to
have additional raises available beside
the single / preemptive raise and the inv.+
raise

#2 4H is heavy, but certainly the paractical bid,
it is not even certain, that 4H makes, given
that 2H could be a whole lot lighter

#3 As it is I would double instead of bidding 5H,
because I would not be sure as opener, that
4H makes, but I am pretty sure 5C goes down

Who to blame, nobody, partly the methods, but it is no
crime to play simple methods.
Better to play simple methods than sientific ..., you dont
understand.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

dicklont, on Nov 21 2007, 02:13 AM, said:

West should have bid 4♣ instead of 4♥. It's free!
East could have bid 3♣ (fit, limit or better) to show quite a decent hand, that would be an option because he has no wastage in clubs. If East knows West is a conservative bidder he should have done that.

West 80% East 20%.

Sure 4C is free.

But do you really believe, that the opponents
dont listen to the bidding?
The only reason I would bid 4C is to create a
forcing pass auction to help me to decide, what to
do, if I they bid 5C.
This of course assumes, that the partnership knows
the Forcing Pass concept.
If they dont know it, 4C is a waste of time, having
no additional benefit, just the downside, that opener
may reveal some shape informtion.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Nov 21 2007, 07:21 AM, said:

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

Yes.

[brianshark]

East has a tough bid. He has nice heart support, the spades are of uncertain value. They could be valuable (as above) or totally useless. The small doubleton club holding is a definite negative. Kx in diamonds middling. But it's a 7.5 loser hand. I think I'd lean towards treating it as a limit raise mainly because opps aren't bidding spades making it more liekly partner has some fitting values there. But it's not clearcut at all and I won't put too much blame on anyone who just bids 2♥.

So 25% east for the constructive raise and 75% west for the 4♥ signoff.

[kenrexford]

P-1♥-2♣-3♣
5♣-6♥-all pass

I think this auction would be repeated.

[gwnn]

mike777, on Nov 21 2007, 09:03 AM, said:

assuming random super expert pick up partner
1) hate 2h....
2) hate 4h

amen.

[MomoTheDog]

A constructive limit raise to 3c from east is absolutely essential.

[vuroth]

I can't bring myself to limit raise with east's hand. It's a near max 2♥, but that's my bid, too.

I think 4♣ is a clearer bid than 4♥. There is some slam potential in west's hand, and 4♥ just slams the door on slam.

Fwiw, I find forcing passes rather confusing. Still, I hope I would have found some positive action over 4♣ - 5♣, while 4♥ - 5♣ I think it's more difficult to do.

Still, the opponents could have made the whole auction easier on us. For B/I (since this isn't the expert pickup forum!), I think my first instinct would be to congratulate opponents rather than berate partner.

All imho of course.

V

[jocdelevat]

Oh well I wonder why I still play a game that I do not understand.
Thank you all for your response.

p.s are there any good books on how to evaluate your hand?

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Nov 21 2007, 01:21 AM, said:

Doesn't east have a clear limit raise?

No

And the fact that Justin, Hannie and I (just to name only those who said no) say no means that it is not, viewed objectively, a 'clear limit raise'.

That is NOT the same as saying that for jdonn or Frances (and others) it is not a clear limit raise: just a recognition that it is unsafe and unfair to base a criticism of East's bidding on the basis that it is 'clear'.

To me, it is a maximum single raise... a super-max, if you want. But the line has to be drawn somewhere, and I know where, in my world, the line exists on this hand. That some superb players draw the line elsewhere doesn't make their placement of the line 'clear' other than to themselves.

Now, if we accept, for the sake of argument, that some good players will bid 2♥ as East, then West should 'clearly' cater to this with his monster... and, of course, he doesn't need everything that east has in order for slam to be a good spot.

Change the trump A to the Queen and I suspect that josh and Frances would join the host of single raisers, and I'd like to be in 6♥.. altho, admittedly, that contract is far less secure than with the actual hands due to the possibility of a spade ruff.

I blame West 90% and East only 10% simply because he could, not should, have saved West from his pessimism.

[jdonn]

It's obviously not as clear as I thought, based on the voting, in fact it seems right on the borderline judging by support on both sides. I'm surprised, it still seems clear to me. I think it's not totally fair to west the harshness of the criticism he is receiving. The reason slam keeps being so good is partner had a six card suit on the side, that is not something you normally cater to.

Anyway, considering, as has been pointed out by various people, that you could remove a working honor (any of several, in fact) from either hand and still have a good slam just goes to show that neither player should really be getting such a huge percentage of the blame as most people are giving them. Something from 30 to 70 for each player depending on how you feel seems reasonable, but I think any more for either player is unreasonable.