[Apollo81]

Suppose you're playing Precision and played 1♦-1M-2♦ as a 3-card, 11-13 HCP raise of responder's major. What methods would you play after this?

[Gerben42]

Does it promise some ♦ or also balanced? What hand types?

[hrothgar]

Never had to think about this one. This is (obviously) going to be quite tricky because you have a lot more bidding space available if partner has Spades rather than Hearts. (Life gets a bit easier if 1♦ - 2♥ shows both majors)

Please note: I am assuming that its not worth bothering with a quantitative invite. (I certainly can see allocating spade to it when opener has already shown 11-13 balanced. I'd rather focus on shape)

Lets assume that the auction starts:

1♦ - 1♠
2♦

3♥ = 5+ Spades and 4+ Hearts, game try (forcing to 3♠)
3♦ = 5+ Spades and 4+ Diamonds, game try
3♣ = 5+ Spades and 4+ Clubs, game try
2N = 6+ Spades with shortage (3♣ asks)
2♠ = Long spades, no shortage
2♥ = Puppet to 2♠

After

1♦ - 1♥
2♦

now you're going to be stuck with something like:

3♦ = 5+ Spades and 4 Hearts, game try
3♣ = 5+ Spades and 4 Clubs, game try
2N = 6+ Hearts
2♠ = Puppet to 2N
2♥ = To play

which isn't nearly as attractive

[Apollo81]

Gerben42, on Nov 8 2007, 01:17 PM, said:

Does it promise some ♦ or also balanced? What hand types?

Balanced 12-13 or unbalanced 11-13-. Doesn't promise diamonds.

[Apollo81]

You can assume the partnership plays reverse flannery responses to 1♦ if you'd like, when giving your method.

[whereagles]

Apollo81, on Nov 8 2007, 05:07 PM, said:

Suppose you're playing Precision and played 1♦-1M-2♦ as a 3-card, 11-13 HCP raise of responder's major. What methods would you play after this?

1♦ 1♥
2♦ ..?

2♥ = stop
2♠ = relay. If inv then must have 4♠.
2NT = nat, inv (only 4 hearts)
3m = canape, GF
3♥/♠ = 5 hearts, inv/GF

After the 2♠ relay, opener bids:

3♥/♠ = 4♠ and a min/max
2NT = min, no spades
3m/NT = nat, max

If you're interested, I can give you a structure over 1♦-1♠-2♦.

[Apollo81]

I'm not sure catering to opener holding 43xx shape after 1♦-1♥-2♦ is necessary. Opener could just bid 1♠ over the heart response and then correct to 2♥.

[Apollo81]

whereagles, on Nov 8 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

..If you're interested..

If 2♦ instead promised 4-card support then I would use Kokish game tries, which I believe to be a nice balance between concealing declarer's hand, getting the information needed to decide on game, and low memory load.

However, here I certainly think there needs to be a natural 2NT bid. I'm not sure what else is needed, but I prefer schemes that have low memory load.

[Apollo81]

whereagles, on Nov 8 2007, 01:39 PM, said:

1♦ 1♥
2♦ ..?

2♥ = stop
2♠ = relay. If inv then must have 4♠.
2NT = nat, inv (only 4 hearts)
3m = canape, GF
3♥/♠ = 5 hearts, inv/GF

After the 2♠ relay, opener bids:

3♥/♠ = 4♠ and a min/max
2NT = min, no spades
3m/NT = nat, max

If you're interested, I can give you a structure over 1♦-1♠-2♦.

If I were going to adopt something like this, I would tweak it a little to the following:

2M to play
2OM Kokish like ask for lowest suit where you'd accept a game try
2NT nat, inv
3m 4+, GF
3♥ 5+, inv

A 2♠ response to the 2OM-ask would show a bad hand, partner could re-ask via 2NT if he wants.

The only downside to the above that I can see is that there's no obvious way to force the "agreed" major. The ask would probably have to implicitly agree the suit (although perhaps not preventing the partnership from playing in 3NT).

[whereagles]

Well, it's just food for thought. A scheme over 1S reply can be made, which is mnemonic with the 1H one.

[hrothgar]

Apollo81, on Nov 8 2007, 08:53 PM, said:

However, here I certainly think there needs to be a natural 2NT bid.  I'm not sure what else is needed, but I prefer schemes that have low memory load.

I really don't think that a natural 2NT bid is necessary or desirable:

You noted that opener promises 12-13 with a balanced hand (11 - 13 with an unbalanced hand). How often is opener going to want to make any further moves over a natural 2N? In theory, he might hold 6 Diamonds and a three card major, however, I expect that a number of these hands might have chosen to suppress the 3 card major.

I think that there are a lot of advantages if responder has a low level puppet avail. For example

1D - 1S
2S - 2S = puppet to 2NT

You still have the opportunity to play 2N. There is always the opportunity to pass the puppet. However, responder can now make a variety of other bids after the forced 2NT(typically showing game forcing hands with 4 Spades and a longer minor)

[awm]

My observation has been that distinguishing between good/bad 2M bids is usually more useful than immediately distinguishing between 3/4 cards. The good/bad distinction lets you stop at the two-level more often when you have no game, which is really quite handy, whereas the 3/4 card distinction actually helps opponents decide whether to balance on hands where you're trying to stop in 2M.

Anyways, how about something like:

1♦-1♥-2♦...

2♠ = relay, 5+♥ inv+
----> 2N = no shortage
--------> 3m = natural, F1
------------> 3♥ = minimum, bad fit for suit named
------------> 3N = maximum, weak doubleton in suit named (suggest 3NT)
------------> 4m = fit for the minor, suggest 6m if partner has slam interest
------------> other 3-level = cue/concentration of values with a fitting honor
--------> 3♥ = NF, game try asking for spade help
--------> 3♠ = shows spades, slam interest
--------> 3N = suggest to play 3N
--------> 4m = splinter, slam try
----> 3X = showing shortage (hi/mid/low or replacement, whatever) with 3♥=min 3♠=max
--------> 3♥ = NF don't like your shortage
--------> 3N = suggest to play, strong holding opposite shortage
--------> 4♥ = to play
--------> Else = slam try
2NT = inv, only 4♥
----> Pass = min
----> 3m = natural, maximum, exploring for alternate strain (5+, 3325 etc very possible)
----> 3♥ = max balanced with short/weak spades
----> 3♠ = max singleton spade (1345 typical, could bid a 6cm)
----> 3NT = balanced max
3m = NF canape with 4♥ and longer minor (inv)
----> pass = content to play here
----> 3NT = maximum, short/weak in canape suit if anywhere
----> 3♥ = minimum, singleton or void in canape minor, NF
----> New suit = shortage, suggests 4♥ or 5m if unsuited to 3NT
3♥/3♠ = could be forcing canape with clubs/diams (awkward) if MAFIA responses

[Apollo81]

awm, on Nov 8 2007, 02:47 PM, said:

My observation has been that distinguishing between good/bad 2M bids is usually more useful than immediately distinguishing between 3/4 cards. The good/bad distinction lets you stop at the two-level more often when you have no game, which is really quite handy, whereas the 3/4 card distinction actually helps opponents decide whether to balance on hands where you're trying to stop in 2M.

I'm doing both. Notice that the range of this bid is the lower half of 1♦'s range.

[jtfanclub]

Apollo81, on Nov 8 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

I'm not sure catering to opener holding 43xx shape after 1♦-1♥-2♦ is necessary. Opener could just bid 1♠ over the heart response and then correct to 2♥.

I guess in my partnerships we usually do the immediate support with unbalanced 3 card support even with 4 spades. I mean, does

1♦ 1♥
1♠ 2♣
2♥

actually promise 3 in your methods?

I guess to me, part of the issue is that you need to know if it's balanced or unbalanced 3 card support. If responder is minimum with 4 trumps, and opener is balanced, you want to be able to stop in 2NT. If opener is unbalanced, you want to stop in 2M. If responder is minimm balanced with 5, he wants to stop in 2 of the major regardless. There isn't any space for this.

Maybe you should split it. Use 2♦ for balanced 3 card support and 2♥ for unbalanced 3 card support or 4 card support, or something. The other choice is to just give up on ever playing at 2NT, like Richard was saying.

[whereagles]

jtfanclub, on Nov 8 2007, 08:20 PM, said:

I guess in my partnerships we usually do the immediate support with unbalanced 3 card support even with 4 spades.  I mean, does

1♦  1♥
1♠  2♣
2♥

actually promise 3 in your methods?

let me change the auction a bit:

1♦ 1♥
1♠ 2♦
2♥

In my methods, this shows around 15-16 and 4351/4360 shape.

With the same shape(s) and 17, bid 3♥ now.
With the same shape(s) and 18-20, jump to 2♠ 2nd round.
With the same shape(s) and 11-14, raise to 2♥ immediately (i.e. skip spades)
With other shapes, bid differently.