[inquiry]

Scoring: MP

You are south bidding is...

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2NT)
?

2NT was not alerted, and assumed to be ♠ and ♣ stoppers and natural

---

What is difference between: DBL, 3♠, 3♦, and 4♦ and what would 3♥ by you show? Finally, does your partner's 1♠ promise 5 or more, or can it be on a four card suit?

[Free]

I bid 4♠, pressure bid. LHO will start to doubt if his partner has support or not, we have at least 9 trumps together, and I have good placed top honours.

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 03:08 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

You are south bidding is...

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2NT)
?

2NT was not alerted, and assumed to be ♠ and ♣ stoppers and natural

---

What is difference between: DBL, 3♠, 3♦, and 4♦ and what would 3♥ by you show?  Finally, does your partner's 1♠ promise 5 or more, or can it be on a four card suit?

I will bid 3S.

Dbl shold mean what it sounds. 3H should be reverse. Not sure what 3D should mean, maybe opener has a long club suit and asking for d stopper, maybe it shows a good raise to 3S, i prefer it to show later in the given context. 4D is easy, shows a really good hand worth raise to 4S with slam interest. 4S should be a mix bid which aims to leave opp to guess.

I think 1S here only guarantees 4 cards. I belive dbl shold guarantee 44 in Majors.

[Charis]

My partner's 1!S doesn't mean anything defined, as it's at a social table with my wife But that brings me to two (newbie) questions...

How are you supposed to play online or at an event with a random partner with such a diversity of opnions on the meaning of bids? Sure the opening bids and uncontested auctions are well defined, and with a well-oiled partnership you can pre-discuss these types of things.

1. Are such questions in a thread like this trying to discuss what may be the best choice for the meaning of such a bid between regular partners, or are you trying to get an idea for what would be most close to 'standard' in the absense of an agreement? Those are two very different questions, and on threads like this I'm not sure which is being asked.

2. What would be considered the standard meanings of the rebids you mention, among random partners who only know "we're playing 2/1 GF"?

I could see 3D as a limit raise, a GF raise, a general 'strong hand' forcing response, a help game try, or a control-showing game try. 4D would be a splinter showing support in spades and shortness in diamonds, but limited values? But that's too high lvl for a game try - would anyone use 3D as a splinter-ish game try?
3H could be a fit non-jump, a natural new suit (good suit, non-min hand obviously), a or strong hand reverse. Dbl - could that be a support double showing 3 spades since you don't know if pd has 4 or 5, or would it be a "the hand is ours" bid? I think 1S could only promise 4 - what do you bid with 4 nice spades and say 2 hearts otherwise? (fudge and call them 5? )

The thought of playing with a random partner and a confusion arising between a splinter bid and fit-showing bid is a scary prospect for folks of a low caliber (such as myself I don't really know what my bid would be, but I sure would want whatever I bid to be understood as showing good support!

Charis

[inquiry]

Lots of question... I will try to have a few answers.

How are you supposed to play online or at an event with a random partner with such a diversity of opnions on the meaning of bids?

Try to play as vanilla as possible until you have time to establish some ground rules. This means, your bids mean what they sound like. Sometimes I try to short cut this by saying, do you play "robson/Segal competition bids", or list a few of my favorite conventions like good/bad 2NT and the like.

Are such questions in a thread like this trying to discuss what may be the best choice for the meaning of such a bid between regular partners, or are you trying to get an idea for what would be most close to 'standard' in the absense of an agreement?

Well a little of both. If everyone trotts out what they do, what becomes standard becomes obvious fairly quickly. If someone gives some sound logic why "standard bids" make no sense here (as I will when I post my treatment), then it can also evolve into a discussion of fit nonjumps and the like. And we can point out why dbl should not be played as "support dbl" per se, although often will include 3 spades.

What would be considered the standard meanings of the rebids you mention, among random partners who only know "we're playing 2/1 GF"?

My bidding has been so screwed up for so long, I have trouble sometimes figuring out what would be standard... maybe the replies to this post will pave the way for figuring this out. However, as usual I have clear view of what the different bids should mean here, including a jump to 4♥ which I forgot to list as a possible bid.

Ben

[flytoox]

Charis, on Feb 13 2004, 04:30 PM, said:

2. What would be considered the standard meanings of the rebids you mention, among random partners who only know "we're playing 2/1 GF"?


Charis

I consider what discribed by mike lawrence to be standard:) If say 2/1, then I imply i will play the system in mike lawrence's workbook on 2 over 1. Surely there are many different version of 2/1, but i belive this one is relatively natural, clear and logical.


Actually, most of defensive bidding is independent of your system. So overcall, balanced bid are even more standard in this sense.

In comparison, contested auction, which i mean we open and opps came in, is related to your system. Because you can infer sth from pd's opening bid. This is particulary true for precision. Many ppl think precision's advantage is to have 1c for strong hand and easy to bid slams. I think precision's real advantage lies in its limited bids, which helps you a lot in contested auction when you have to decid how high to go and whether you should dbl opps.

[inquiry]

Scoring: MP

You are south bidding is...

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2NT)
?

2NT was not alerted, and assumed to be ♠ and ♣ stoppers and natural

---

In my partnerships, I do not play that 1♠ promises 5+♠. So in fact my partners can have as few as 4♠'s. Note, I do believe that for the most part, 1♠ promises 5♠ or more in most standard systems.

Now for how I would play the bids....

PASS - your partner's 1♠ does not establish a forcing pass, so pass is just what it sounds like. In ability to do anything else on my own.

3♥ in standard is probably just what it sounds like, a reverse with good ♥s and good ♣. But, come on, if no one is psyching, you can NEVER, ever have a reverse hand on this auction... just not enough hcp to go around. And if you do have a true reverse, a penalty double will work out just fine here for you.. you have no ♠ fit and strong in the other two suits. So logically, 3♥ should probably be some kind of fit showing bid. Why? If you can't be strong why would you trott out a new suit on a potential (likely?) misfit auction. I think 3♥ should be good ♥'s, short ♦s, and a ♠ fit, but shows less than a jump to 4♥ which is a similar hand.

What should a 3[S] bid be? I for one think this should be just competitive. Showing a minimum hand and a nice ♠ fit. Partner will bid on only with extra values.

My partners and I have a hard and fast, 100% reliable rule. A cue-bid of the opponents suit at the three level is looking for a stopper for 3NT. DESPITE this rule, I would not play 3♦ on this auction to mean this (yes I would ignore this rule and expect my partner to "catch" the deviation from standard). Why? Who in their right mind would want to contract for 9 tricks on offense in NT with opponents having the open lead when they could defend 2NTx. If you can win 9 tricks in NT, wouldn't 2NTX downed five be better than 3NT making, even at unfavorable vulnerability. No, If I am looking for 3NT, I will just double 2NT -- establishing a forcing pass situation, btw for when they run to 3♦s. So my normal meaning of 3♦ is obviously distorted on this auction. I think here 3♦ becomes somewhat nebulous. It shows either an game invitational ♠ raise or better. If partner tries to signoff in 3♠, then opener can accept that decision (game invite) or continue bidding (which becomes game force).

I would play jumps to 4♦ as a splinter with ♠ support and jump to 4♣ as great ♣ suit and ♠ support.

This leaves the meaning of DBL and 3♣. DBL should not be "support" double simply because in my world, support doubles occur below the level of two of my partners suit, and 2NT is above that. However, DBL is generally extra value and willingness to play 2NT dbled, thus this might should include many if not most of the game invitational ♠ raises mentioned earlier and/or the jumps to 4 in a side suit. However, opener may know (or suspect) that the 2NT bidder is hidding great support for overcaller and wants to make the situation clear at once. In fact, holding south's hand I would suspect that someone is kidding on this auction, just not sure who (turns out everyone thinks they have their bids, go figure). I guess my choice would be between double (I have a good ♠ lead and nice holding in the other two side suits, or 3♠.. this aceless hand just isn't quite up to 3♦ bid, or to double hoping for one or two down, and if they run to 3♦ then either bid a non-forcing but invitational 3♠... as it turns out even 3♠ is too high with good defense, but so is 2NT and 3♦. The plus score goes to the side that stops bidding the soonest.

---

5DEx-2 300
3SS= 140
2SS+1 140
3SS= 140
2SS= 110
4SS-1 -100
4SS-1 -100
2HS-1 -100
4SS-1 -100
4SS-1 -100
4SS-2 -200
4SS-2 -200
3SS-2 -200
4SS-2 -200

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 07:10 PM, said:

[ONEHAND=South,N/S,MP,QT64,KQJ9,3,KQT4]You are south bidding is...

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2NT)
?

Note, I do believe that for the most part, 1♠ promises 5♠ or more in most standard systems.

3♥ in standard is probably just what it sounds like, a reverse with good ♥s and good ♣. But, come on, if no one is psyching, you can NEVER, ever have a reverse hand on this auction... just not enough hcp to go around. And if you do have a true reverse, a penalty double will work out just fine here for you.. you have no ♠ fit and strong in the other two suits. So logically, 3♥ should probably be some kind of fit showing bid. Why? If you can't be strong why would you trott out a new suit on a potential (likely?) misfit auction. I think 3♥ should be good ♥'s, short ♦s, and a ♠ fit, but shows less than a jump to 4♥ which is a similar hand.

What should a 3[S] bid be? I for one think this should be just competitive. Showing a minimum hand and a nice ♠ fit. Partner will bid on only with extra values.

My partners and I have a hard and fast, 100% reliable rule. A cue-bid of the opponents suit at the three level is looking for a stopper for 3NT. DESPITE this rule, I would not play 3♦ on this auction to mean this (yes I would ignore this rule and expect my partner to "catch" the deviation from standard). Why? Who in their right mind would want to contract for 9 tricks on offense in NT with opponents having the open lead when they could defend 2NTx. If you can win 9 tricks in NT, wouldn't 2NTX downed five be better than 3NT making, even at unfavorable vulnerability. No, If I am looking for 3NT, I will just double 2NT -- establishing a forcing pass situation, btw for when they run to 3♦s. So my normal meaning of 3♦ is obviously distorted on this auction. I think here 3♦ becomes somewhat nebulous. It shows either an game invitational ♠ raise or better. If partner tries to signoff in 3♠, then opener can accept that decision (game invite) or continue bidding (which becomes game force).

I would play jumps to 4♦ as a splinter with ♠ support and jump to 4♣ as great ♣ suit and ♠ support.

This leaves the meaning of DBL and 3♣. DBL should not be "support" double simply because in my world, support doubles occur below the level of two of my partners suit, and 2NT is above that. However, DBL is generally extra value and willingness to play 2NT dbled, thus this might should include many if not most of the game invitational ♠ raises mentioned earlier and/or the jumps to 4 in a side suit. However, opener may know (or suspect) that the 2NT bidder is hidding great support for overcaller and wants to make the situation clear at once. In fact, holding south's hand I would suspect that someone is kidding on this auction, just not sure who (turns out everyone thinks they have their bids, go figure). I guess my choice would be between double (I have a good ♠ lead and nice holding in the other two side suits, or 3♠.. this aceless hand just isn't quite up to 3♦ bid, or to double hoping for one or two down, and if they run to 3♦ then either bid a non-forcing but invitational 3♠... as it turns out even 3♠ is too high with good defense, but so is 2NT and 3♦. The plus score goes to the side that stops bidding the soonest.

---

5DEx-2 300
3SS= 140
2SS+1 140
3SS= 140
2SS= 110
4SS-1 -100
4SS-1 -100
2HS-1 -100
4SS-1 -100
4SS-1 -100
4SS-2 -200
4SS-2 -200
3SS-2 -200
4SS-2 -200

Ben, I think for most partnership 1S promise only 4 card, 1C-1D-X should promise both majors.

second, though unlikely, i still think 3H should show a shapy offensive hand, like:
S: X
H: AQTXX
D: X
C: AQJ8XX

This hand is still possible in the given context.

In the given auction, do we really need so many ways to raise pd? like, 3d,3h,3s? I dont think so. 3D as an intermeidate raise and 3S as just min raise should suffice, though raising to 3 level should guarantee 4card spt. So I think 3H should be spared for what it sounds.

fly

[inquiry]

flytoox, on Feb 14 2004, 08:57 AM, said:

Ben, I think for most partnership 1S promise only 4 card, 1C-1D-X should promise both majors.

second, though unlikely, i still think 3H should show a shapy offensive hand, like:
S: X
H: AQTXX
D: X
C: AQJ8XX

This hand is still possible in the given context.

In the given auction, do we really need so many ways to raise pd? like, 3d,3h,3s? I dont think so. 3D as an intermeidate raise and 3S as just min raise should suffice, though raising to 3 level should guarantee 4card spt. So I think 3H should be spared for what it sounds.

fly

We will have to disagree on this one Fly,

I am not going to reserve 3♥ for a monster hand on this auction, as it is just too unlikely to be worth reserving it.... and you can get by without it. On your example hand, I would double 2NT planning on killing them with ♣s and if they run to 3♦ i will bid 3♥ showing this hand.

As far as so many ways to raise, in competition, having different ways to raise is key to accurate defensive bidding. This is the entire premise of the Robson/Segal competitive bidding style. I have found this works for me.

Ben

[flytoox]

inquiry, on Feb 14 2004, 05:15 PM, said:

We will have to disagree on this one Fly,

I am not going to reserve 3♥ for a monster hand on this auction, as it is just too unlikely to be worth reserving it.... and you can get by without it. On your example hand, I would double 2NT planning on killing them with ♣s and if they run to 3♦ i will bid 3♥ showing this hand.

As far as so many ways to raise, in competition, having different ways to raise is key to accurate defensive bidding. This is the entire premise of the Robson/Segal competitive bidding style. I have found this works for me.

Ben

hehe, let's agree to disagree. In established partnership, I wont object your treatment, but in pick-up case, better to bid what you mean.

I also agree we need more way to raise pd, but in the given case, I belive 3s,3d,4d,4c,4s should suffice to raise pd.

fly

[mishovnbg]

I vote for 3♠. In MP tourney even is -1 without X is probably still good against 3♦=. Another bids in my opinion:

• Pass: nothing to bid more
  
• X : 2+ zone of HCP (14+), 3-♠, willing to penalize opps. If later bid 3♠, then 3 cards support or 3♥ then natural reverse.
  
• 3♣: 1 zone of HCP (11-14), 6+♣, good suit
  
• 3♦: 2+ zone of HCP (14+), 6+♣, good suit, ask for stop in ♦
  
• 3♥: 2+ zone of HCP, 4 fit in ♠, artifical, inv+
  
• 3♠: 1 zone of HCP, 4FIT, not inv
  
• 3NT: 2 zone of HCP, good 6+♣, stop in ♦, to play

...The most difficulte question is WHY? Your bidding in competition must depend of most often wining contracts: 4 major, 3NT, 5 minor, penalty double , score, slam, grand. If you still have chance to make major game, your bids must be orientated on it. If for example response was 1♥ instead of 1♠, then 3♦ must be inv+ raise, because you have no other bid to show it. But next possible game is 3NT and it is not good idea to miss it.
...P.S. Hi Ben, X is not enough good bid here, if you like to play 3NT(or may be even 4NT because vul) without stop in ♦, because it is clear that in same case opps will play in ♦, not in NT and X here will only lose tempo of describing hand - probably will lead to guess in the future rounds of bidding.
.......................................................................................Misho

[Cascade]

Free, on Feb 13 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

I bid 4♠, pressure bid. LHO will start to doubt if his partner has support or not, we have at least 9 trumps together, and I have good placed top honours.

On that auction many players bid 1♠ with only a four card suit.

What are you supposed to bid with:

♠ AKxx
♥ xx
♦ Jxx
♣ xxxx

?

Wayne

[Cascade]

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 12:08 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

You are south bidding is...

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2NT)
?

2NT was not alerted, and assumed to be ♠ and ♣ stoppers and natural

---

What is difference between: DBL, 3♠, 3♦, and 4♦ and what would 3♥ by you show?  Finally, does your partner's 1♠ promise 5 or more, or can it be on a four card suit?

For me:

Pass = any minimum unlikely to have spade support unless very weak

X = any good hand without a spade fit

3♣ = moderate hand with six-clubs

3♦ = must be some sort of slammish hand - advanced cue could be in support of spades of with a very strong single-suited club hand

3♥ = natural and a reasonable hand

3♠ = standard raise (rarely a three-card suit) - weaker than in an uncontested auction

3NT = to play

4♣ = better than 3♣ but more distributional than double

4♦ = splinter spade raise

4♥ = splinter

Wayne

4♠ = better than 3♠

[Trpltrbl]

3 ♠ showing 4 card suit, since I play support X and XX up to 3 ♥. I also should have a decent hand, like the one I have and let pd decide from there.

Mike

[WGF_Flame]

inquiry, on Feb 13 2004, 10:08 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

You are south bidding is...

1♣-(1♦)-1♠-(2NT)
?

2NT was not alerted, and assumed to be ♠ and ♣ stoppers and natural

---

What is difference between: DBL, 3♠, 3♦, and 4♦ and what would 3♥ by you show?  Finally, does your partner's 1♠ promise 5 or more, or can it be on a four card suit?

first of all its a very bad idea to assume 2nt is natural, u need to ask not to assume.
i play 1sp after this specific sequence to be 4 cards, but thats a matter of partnership agrement and its just this specific 1cl 1d , on any other it shows 5.
double of this natural 2nt should show extra hcp usually without too good fit and suggest leaving it, again its a matter of partnership and its not a bad idea to play this as showing a specific 3 card support in case 1spade only shows 4.

4d is definatly a splitnter showing a good hand (better then u got)
3sp shows no extra just good fit.
3d should show a better hand with a fit, there is no point in playing 3d as asking for stoper here.
3h if no other agrement is natural showing 5 hearts and 6 clubs. (i dont think u need another agrement for this bid.
all in all its 3d is the best cause ur a bit stronger then 3sp and too weak for 4d.

[Free]

Cascade, on Feb 15 2004, 06:47 AM, said:

Free, on Feb 13 2004, 12:34 PM, said:

I bid 4♠, pressure bid.  LHO will start to doubt if his partner has support or not, we have at least 9 trumps together, and I have good placed top honours.

On that auction many players bid 1♠ with only a four card suit.

What are you supposed to bid with:

♠ AKxx
♥ xx
♦ Jxx
♣ xxxx

?

Wayne

I asumed a 4 card ♠ actually... Actually, what's the problem? Won't you make 4♠? I will

[inquiry]

Trpltrbl, on Feb 22 2004, 04:29 PM, said:

3 ♠ showing 4 card suit, since I play support X and XX up to 3 ♥. I also should have a decent hand, like the one I have and let pd decide from there.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Support doubles (and redoubles) through 3♥ is an odd treatment. I know of only a handful of pairs that play support doubles above the level of two of their partner's major... for instance, while...

1m-(p)-1♥-1NT
X

is often support double for ♥, i believe a very, very small minority would play

1m-(p)=1♥=2NT
X

as support.

And I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who plays traditional support redoubles above the level of one (well other than you). However, after partner overcalls at the two level, I have seen some players use a direct raise over a double to show 4 card support for the overcalled suit and redouble to show 3 card raise to help with higher level competition. Is this what you mean when you use the support redouble above the level of one?

I have no experience playing these doubles at higher levels (I use support doubles at one and two level below my partners MAJOR suit response to my minor opening bid, and redoubles only at the one level in the same situation)... how do they work for you, and how do you feel about giving up the other meaning of these bids?

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

inquiry, on Feb 24 2004, 10:27 AM, said:

Trpltrbl, on Feb 22 2004, 04:29 PM, said:

3 ♠ showing 4 card suit, since I play support X and XX up to 3 ♥. I also should have a decent hand, like the one I have and let pd decide from there.

Mike 

And I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who plays traditional support redoubles above the level of one (well other than you). However, after partner overcalls at the two level, I have seen some players use a direct raise over a double to show 4 card support for the overcalled suit and redouble to show 3 card raise to help with higher level competition. Is this what you mean when you use the support redouble above the level of one?

I have no experience playing these doubles at higher levels (I use support doubles at one and two level below my partners MAJOR suit response to my minor opening bid, and redoubles only at the one level in the same situation)... how do they work for you, and how do you feel about giving up the other meaning of these bids?

Ben

Hi Ben, I have no complains, I play very simple system with most of my pd's there are a few I do some more complicated stuff but with all of them I play support X and XX up to 3♥. And I have no complain, but 1 thing I have to say, we don't show support with very minimum hand. With my more complex pd I play wk NT, either 10-12 or 12-14, so my X or XX also tends to show, if balanced, an either 13-16 or 15-17 hand. So it more like a 2 way X. But with my other pd playing basic 2/1, at least in my eyes, the higher we go there is a possibility that we pass even if we have 3 card support. Can't remember last time though.....

Mike