[kgr]

Scoring: MP

Pass-
(1♣)-1♥-(2♣)-3♣
(Pass)-3♠-(Pass)-4♠
(5♣)-5♠-All Pass

---

5♠-1 because of a Heart ruff, 5♥ would make.
Partner first passed, so 3♣ showed a good hand with a fit. 2NT (fit) would have been the better bid with the North hand.
We play DBL as take out. Do you think that 3♣ should always have a 4 card ♥?
- What do you think of the bidding

[Echognome]

Seems that defending 5♣ would have been fruitful.

[ceeb]

From South's perspective 5♠ might have been better than 5♥ -- say if N were 4432. On the given hands I don't see how anything makes.

S's venture to the 5 level looks a bit pushy, but probably the auction was ill-defined. Mainly I'm interested in the first bid, the 1♥ overcall. There was a time that double seemed obvious. Then players learned to bid so extremely well that bidding 1♥ supposedly shows a profit. However, this hand makes the point that to show a profit by overcalling you need to have an extremely fine understanding of the remainder of the auction. As the auction went South did not know N's major suit distribution, and neither player knew accurately how much strength each had shown in the bidding. Hence a random result.

[P_Marlowe]

#q1: no 3C just shows fit, i.e. 3 card support areenough
#q2: 3S is ok, ... if it was intended as a cue and as long
as partner understands the bid, it certainly does not
promise 4 cards
why 4S? Looking at the hand, it seems clear that North
did not understand 3S
5S, South should make a forcing pass, and let North
decide, and North, given his defence, will double

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

1. I cannot see any contract above 4 Spade making against normal defence.
2. There was no reason to bid 3 Spade. You have no slam interesst opposite a passed partner, so why keep on bidding?
3. A 4-4 fit is better if you can discard loosers on the 5 card side suit. From North point of view, which looser do you wish to discard? The 4. Diamond? No need for 5 Spade, 5 Heart must be safer.
4. I am not sure why anybody says that north should double 5 Club. He has a shortness in their suit, soft values and a double fit in the majors and prime cards in Diamonds. This looks like playing, not defending.

[skjaeran]

I don't think south's 3♠ invites slam, it just shows a side suit and forces game - north could be 4-3 in the majors, and then 4♠ would probably play better.

North's got too much offensive strenght to double 5♣, but not enough to venture the 5-level IMO. Thus a forcing pass is the correct call. South should double this, not being able to underwrite a contract of 5M.

Btw, I can't see how 5♥ could be a make, with a loser in every suit except ♣s.

Edit: Sorry, I misconstrued the bidding. South should double 5♣ and north should then pass IMO.

[ArtK78]

It is funny the way that the problem is set out.

5♠ is the only 5-level contract that has a chance to make. It takes 3-2 spades and no adverse ruff. You might be able to handle 4-1 spades on a good day if the ace is singleton.

5♥ has no legitimate play, although it is possible to make occasionally if the opps allow you to endplay them and you get lucky in the lie of the diamond suit.

5♣x was the last plus score for NS. It is sometimes difficult to double out your opponents when they have a massive trump fit and you have 2 good fits of your own. I don't like South's 5♠ bid, but he cannot double, and if he passes 5♣ North may very well bid 5 of a major himself.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Oct 31 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

I don't like South's 5♠ bid, but he cannot double,

Why not? It's hard to imagine much less offense given the 3♠ bid. I would have doubled as south. A pass to me would be if one of south's diamonds were a heart.

[skjaeran]

jdonn, on Oct 31 2007, 07:31 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Oct 31 2007, 01:04 PM, said:

I don't like South's 5♠ bid, but he cannot double,

Why not? It's hard to imagine much less offense given the 3♠ bid. I would have doubled as south. A pass to me would be if one of south's diamonds were a heart.

Definitely agree with this. Not even close to bidding at the 5-level with this hand, and not enough to make a forcing pass either. Absolute clear double IMO.

[dburn]

I am not entirely certain why South should bid 5S instead of 5H. Maybe South should not bid at all, but that is a separate issue.

But I confess that if North were to raise spades, I would disagree with skaeran's assessment that this was "not close to bidding at the five level". I might, however, have bid the suit in which we were more likely to make a five-level contract; it would be hard for me to construct a hand opposite which 5S would make and 5H would not.

[dburn]

The foregoing assumes that South had the queen of diamonds, otherwise the whole thing is an April fool. Whether too late for this year or too early for next is left as an exercise for the reader.

[han]

David, if your cryptic writing means that you think 5H should not be made on these cards then I agree.

[dburn]

Hannie, on Oct 31 2007, 06:28 PM, said:

David, if your cryptic writing means that you think 5H should not be made on these cards then I agree.

Cryptic writing due to cryptic reading - that is, I had scanned the first few posts under the misapprehension that the deal had been properly analysed in the first place (5H makes, 5S goes down because of H ruff, et cetera).

It was only when some cryptologist said that 5S had play and 5H did not that I investigated the (possible) play of the hand further. It seemed to me that the analysis advanced of the former contract was rubbish, but I had been taken in to the extent of suggesting that maybe South ought to have bid 5H and not 5S.

South should not have done half as much bidding as he did. Neither should North. As usual, someone ought to have doubled someone else, but no one could.

[kgr]

dburn, on Nov 1 2007, 01:18 AM, said:

The foregoing assumes that South had the queen of diamonds, otherwise the whole thing is an April fool. Whether too late for this year or too early for next is left as an exercise for the reader.

Yes, sorry...South had ♦Qxx
..Now 5♥ makes.
So best is: a forcing pass by South after 5♣ and North bids 5♥?

[Codo]

kgr, on Nov 1 2007, 08:08 PM, said:

dburn, on Nov 1 2007, 01:18 AM, said:

The foregoing assumes that South had the queen of diamonds, otherwise the whole thing is an April fool. Whether too late for this year or too early for next is left as an exercise for the reader.

Yes, sorry...South had ♦Qxx
..Now 5♥ makes.
So best is: a forcing pass by South after 5♣ and North bids 5♥?

I think best is:

(1♣) 1 ♥ (2 ♣) 4♣

showing 4 Hearts and a shortness in Club. You can take it from here, but the descission may well be much easier for your side.

But if you want to start with 3 Club and pd bids 3 Spade because he still thinks, that 4 Spade may be superior, you should still bid 4 HEart, as pointed out before, n Spade cannot be better then n Heart in this hand. At least as long as pd if pd is not exactly 4540 and the diamonds 4-1.

But if you did bid all the way up to 5 club as it was shown, south had not enough for a forcing pass, so he should double. Now North may judge that his Club shortness and his soft values in the double fit suits are worth a 5 Heart bid and they will play there, but I think he should pass and they should defend 5 Club.