[the hog]

This post was brought about by a previous one where it appeared that the auction 1S 3S did a lot to pre empt finding a very nice 6S slam.

1) How many play that 1M 3M is pre emptive?
2) Have you had much success in pre empting the opponents or have you pre empted yourself?

I know that Robson - Segal say that we need to have more ways to raise partner, but so many times when I have bid 1M 3M I have either goaded the opps into a game they may well not have bid, or I have found partner with "the goods" and the opps would never have bid anyway while pd is struggling to make his part score. Also frequently the Lott is out for some reason that you cannot discern without seeing all 4 hands. All this has got me thinking that I really do not like this bid much, even though we still play 1-3 as pre emptive at this stage.

What do others think?

[inquiry]

1) How many play that 1M 3M is pre emptive?

I have become very fond of 1♠-3♠ as weak, preemptive, and (shock), of 1♠-2♠ as preemptive (well, not constructive).

I do not use the 3♠ when vul with weak 4333 hands. Too many bad experiences. So my vul bid is either at least 4432 and generally is not of the zero to 3 hcp variety.

2) Have you had much success in pre empting the opponents or have you pre empted yourself?

I generally don't preempt myself because, I use weak fit jumps to two and three level. Thus with the perfect fitting hand that requires support and stuff in a side suit, I already found it. Thus the slam tries over the fit jump are help suit slam tries not dissimilar to the thread on the other post.

This fit-jump issue makes my 2NT bid LIMIT RAISE or better.

Ben

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Feb 10 2004, 02:00 AM, said:

This post was brought about by a previous one where it appeared that the auction 1S 3S did a lot to pre empt finding a very nice 6S slam.

1) How many play that 1M 3M is pre emptive?
2) Have you had much success in pre empting the opponents or have you pre empted yourself?

I know that Robson - Segal say that we need to have more ways to raise partner, but so many times when I have bid 1M 3M I have either goaded the opps into a game they may well not have bid, or I have found partner with "the goods" and the opps would never have bid anyway while pd is struggling to make his part score. Also frequently the Lott is out for some reason that you cannot discern without seeing all 4 hands. All this has got me thinking that I really do not like this bid much, even though we still play 1-3 as pre emptive at this stage.

What do others think?

I play 1M 3M as pre-emptive. But I can't say that I can remember many particularly good or bad boards as a result (I use 1M 2NT as Inv+ to replace the limit bid).

I like to restrict it to offensive rather than defensive hands, especially in spades where 1S 2S is often enough to keep opps out.

I do remember some good boards where I have made a pre-emptive raise of partners 1M overcall. Of course, in this scenario we are more likely to be pre-empting opps than partner.

If you gave up the pre-emptive raise what would you use the direct raise for? I suspect that a limit raise is sub-optimal because there is a subset of minimum hands for opener which make game because of an undiscoverable secondary fit.

Maybe it could be used as a void showing splinter in an unknown suit, or a GF raise made with particularly good trumps, or something even more exotic.

Eric

[nilbes]

I am very much in favor of bergen raises and have rarely been in a bad spot as long as you dont miuse it. for example partner opens a major: with a 4 card support but 4333 flat and weak hand I prefer 1 nt then supprt major in unfav.vulnerability otherwise with unbalanced hand my bid is a jump p should know that i have no defense in case he has a strong hand and wants to dbl. opps.bergen is a part of the rule of total tricks so its helpfull to know how far to bid when to stop and when to dbl. opps

[flytoox]

The_Hog, on Feb 10 2004, 02:00 AM, said:

This post was brought about by a previous one where it appeared that the auction 1S 3S did a lot to pre empt finding a very nice 6S slam.

1) How many play that 1M 3M is pre emptive?
2) Have you had much success in pre empting the opponents or have you pre empted yourself?

I know that Robson - Segal say that we need to have more ways to raise partner, but so many times when I have bid 1M 3M I have either goaded the opps into a game they may well not have bid, or I have found partner with "the goods" and the opps would never have bid anyway while pd is struggling to make his part score. Also frequently the Lott is out for some reason that you cannot discern without seeing all 4 hands. All this has got me thinking that I really do not like this bid much, even though we still play 1-3 as pre emptive at this stage.

What do others think?

I like 1M-3M as semi-preemptive, 5-8hcp 4card spt.

[Free]

I usually play 1M-3M 0-5 HCP and at least a 4 card support, so yes, preemptive. But I must admit I had some bad experiences with them. Imo, you can better bid 4M right away than 3M, because opps will never let you play 3M... I've pushed them into slam where nobody played, I've played games of my own I had no chance whatsoever,... All other parts of the Bergen raises have worked for me, except the weakest part.

[mishovnbg]

.............................................Hi Ron!............................................
I don't like bergen raises. They use many useful bids, comes rare and give additional lead directing X to opps. The best way is to use js as inv. If you can use transfer responses, then as 2 way inv - for game or slam. My last idea is to use 2 level js after 1m opening as exactly inv with exactly 4 cards in major - come very often, can be passed, difficult for opps, easy rebid in competition after 1/1, because reopen X show then [B]5 cards in 1/1 major or GF.
The pre-empts are important part of wining bridge. LOTT and percentage play are statistical methods and their usage must be only as guideline and not as replacement of the table presence - one of the greatest people mistakes is to become "believers" instead of "thinking followers". Robson and Segal did great job for partnership understanding, but no need to use their technic like a bible. Two ways of raise is enough untill uncontested auction.
How many pre-empt is pre-empt? I found my answer many years ago and din't change it. Pre-empt=optimistic distributional limit raise. For example I count singleton as 2 CC for pre-empt raise. If all is perfect we can even make such "pre-empt"! Generally I hate to try to kill myself...
....................................................................................Misho

[Trpltrbl]

I play that as Preemptive, and I have no complains at all. And I am sure there will be occasions where it might not work out as good as you hoped, but that is with every convention.

Mike