[jdonn]

One side bidding.
1♥ 1♠
3♣ 3♥
4♣ 4♦
4♥ 5♣

If you vote one of the first two answers, please say at what point you think the trump suit became agreed.
If you vote other, please explain.

[Halo]

5C natural.

The 4D over 4C showed support for a 5 card club suit and some values that the substandard heart holding induced me to suppress previously.

5C says I'm OK in context (but no more), the context being clubs and my 4D bid.

[whereagles]

French style, it's at the 3♥ bid.

US style, I think 4♦ says "I'm ok with clubs", otherwise 4♥ would be the bid.

[helene_t]

This poll is inappropriate. You set it up with the sole purpose of proving that I'm a Rexfordian Edit: just realized that you may be targeting Mikeh rather than me, happy about that.

It depends on the meaning of 3♥. With my IRL p this is a cue in support of hearts, since 3♥ agreed hearts. But playing "standard" I think it should be natural. It sets trump although p could still go back to 6♥ if he happens to have six of them.

[whereagles]

boy... after reading justin's post, I'm glad I play 3♥ as true support

[mike777]

Surprised so many are running from 4H to a natural to play 5club rebid?

[helene_t]

mike777, on Oct 21 2007, 01:14 AM, said:

Surprised so many are running from 4H to a natural to play 5club rebid?

I can't imagine anyone (oh well) defining it as "to play". Must be forward going. Maybe the poll should have made the distinction between sign-off, positive NF and forcing in case it's natural. I vote for positive NF. (As for preferred style, I agree with what Frances writes below).

[FrancesHinden]

The key to this auction (and my vote) is what 3♦ would have meant over 3♣.
For me, I still play 4th suit forcing, and in particular with 3♦ being step 1 - the cheapest call - it is the call I would make any time I was uncertain about strain. Thus 3♥ agreed hearts and set them as trumps; 5♣ is a cue for hearts.

The order of suits matters:

1H - 1S
3C - 3H

is genuine heart support, as 4th suit is cheaper. Similarly

1D - 1H
2S - 3D

is genuine diamond support, as 3C is available as an easy 'lurking' bid.

1H - 1S
3D - 3H

certainly may not be, because responder is stuck on a boring 4234 without a club stop (it might be a singleton heart in really bad circumstances).

1D - 1H
3C - 3D

may be Hx or so in diamonds, because 3S takes up so much room.

However, I am aware that not everyone plays the meaning of 4th suit in these auctions the way I do, which changes the meaning of 3H to Jlall's definition.

[dake50]

If not 3D over 3C =where we going?, all after is looking high.
5C maybe CQx to assuage C-suit fear or better for slam.

[skjaeran]

I miscliked other.
5♣ is a cuebid for hearts in my methods.
3♣ is 55 GF and 3♥ sets trump.

[Poky]

♣A or ♣K, hearts are for sure agreed with the 4♦ cue.

[HeavyDluxe]

jdonn, on Oct 20 2007, 03:21 PM, said:

One side bidding.
1♥ 1♠
3♣ 3♥
4♣ 4♦
4♥ 5♣

FWIW (and that's not much), I think it's a club cuebid with hearts as trumps.

This auction would have a specific 'agreement' with the folks I normally play with...

1♥ 1♠*
3♣ 3♥*

Game forcing heart raise. The 1S (or 2C or 2D) would show a good five card suit (2 of the top 3 honors). This 'delayed raise' is the responder's analog to a 4 level opener's rebid to Jacoby 2NT.

4♣ 4♦
4♥ 5♣

Assuming the 'gadget' above, 4C is bidding out shape or control showing. 4D is a cuebid. Opener has no extra values, so bids 4H but responder has other ideas.

Take this with the biggest grain of salt imaginable. Mmmmm. Salt.

[andy_h]

5♣ natural.
Can 3♣ still be a 4card suit and GF?

If that's the case, 3♥ might be bid with Hx in hearts and 3clubs.
Partner confirms 5-5 with 4♣ and so now we bid 4♦ for a slam interest.
4♥ natural nothing better to say, 5♣ natural

[kenrexford]

1♥: Natural, 5+ in suit
1♠: Natural, 4+ in suit. If GF, will not have 3-card heart support unless the spades are long (6+)
3♣: GF, could be a fragment
3♥: Agrees hearts. I agree with the analysis that the availability of 3♦ as a fourth-suit call under 3♥ is key. If 3♦ was the J.S., then 3♥ might be bid on a doubleton. However, this is a real fit.
4♣: A cue. Denies any of the top three spades. Denies serious interest (contextually). Two of the top three spade honors.
4♦: A cue. This cue is ambiguous about diamonds, as the only assured control is in spades. Somewhat LTTC.
4♥: Nothing above what I have shown.
5♣: See below

This 5♣ call is somewhat strange, of course. Often, a "cue" above game is Exclusion, but that seems wildly wrong here. Sometimes a "cue" above game is really RKCB, with the side suit as the focus for keycard. Sometimes a cue is a cue.

Responder already knows that Opener has two top clubs (4♣). If he has the third, the usual reason to cue, then he would know about the club situation, so he would probably want to know about hearts, the one suit not yet shown. If he wanted to check back on the diamond situation, he would surely bid 4♠. 4♠ cannot be RKCB-refocus, because Opener denied a spade control, and no Exclusion because Responder bid spades. If he wanted to find out about the quality of the clubs, he would be able to cue 4♠, expecting to hear a 5♣ call if Opener holds three top clubs. SO, I cannot understand any rational for 5♣ as a normal slam probe.

So, what can 5♣ be?

Look way back to the 3♣ call. Opener has not promised clubs. If Responder has some sort of 5314 or 4315 pattern, with a Heck of a lot of stuff (contextually), he might agree hearts for tactical reasons but might need the answer to the "real or not real" clubs situation. He might be able to get up to 11 tricks if hearts are trumps but twelve if clubs are trumps (diamond ruffs).

So, I'd take 5♣ as a natural call in the end, offering a choice between 5♥ and 6♣, depending upon whether Opener's clubs were real. Responder was prepared, after the 4♦ call, to leap to 6♣ as a choice bid if Opener had done anything other than 4♥.

[mikeh]

Okay, since the question arose in response to an exchange between josh and me on another thread, I'd better do my best to get as many 'cue-bid of course' comments on this thread as possible... I was tempted to create a whole series of new members just to overwhelm the contrary votes

So it's not as unambiguous as I thought... but Lord spare me from partners who take me out of a 5-2 heart fit (when they hold Hx no less!) to play in a 5-3 club fit. Just what kind of heart suit do you guys hold for this auction? K5432???

And even if it is K5432, since we have forced to game, I would suggest that 4♥ has to be cold on any non 5-1 split even then... or have we begun jumpshifting on Kx K5432 K AQJxx?

Maybe I missed the point. If we are all agreed that 5♣ is forcing, and that it shows at least Hxx, such that we may later offer a choice of suits for slam purpose. But if the poll was intended to show that we could play 5♣ on this hand on this auction, please...please.. don't bid that way with me I can accept Qxx if it is intended as forcing.. altho I don't like it much.


BTW, in my preferred methods, 3♥ confirms hearts, so I am a bit biased. I didn't state that in my original posts because I was responding on the assumption that we were playing 'standard' and that the discussion involved, in part, what 'standard' was. But I use 3♣ as artificial: may be two suited, may be monster one suited in hearts and may be 3=6 in the majors with spade interest: responder almost always bids 3♦ to relay, so that 3♥ is an unambiguous statement as to trump. Now 5♣ cannot ever be an offer to play 5♣.

[Halo]

mikeh, on Oct 21 2007, 03:08 PM, said:

Maybe I missed the point. If we are all agreed that 5♣ is forcing, and that it shows at least Hxx, such that we may later offer a choice of suits for slam purpose. But if the poll was intended to show that we could play 5♣ on this hand on this auction, please...please.. don't bid that way with me I can accept Qxx if it is intended as forcing.. altho I don't like it much.

I'd have to let you know the names I play under, because to me it is obvious my auction is clubs and encouraging but not forcing beyond 5C.

What do you do with very strong hands, six hearts and four clubs. Why do you think partner, forced to bid has cooperated in a heart slam.

[mikeh]

Halo, on Oct 21 2007, 03:20 PM, said:

What do you do with very strong hands, six hearts and four clubs.  Why do you think partner, forced to bid has cooperated in a heart slam.

Not sure what the question is. While responder was forced to bid over 3♣, no one held a gun to his head to force him to cue bid over 4♣. Whatever 4♦ showed, it wasn't a sign of weakness.

As for what opener should bid with 6=4 and good hearts and a gf: well, he opens 1♥, jumps to 3♣ and then, over 3♥, will usually bid 4♥. He will have told his story. BTW, I may have an enormous hand if I am 5-5 but I will have a lower upper limit if I am 6=4, since truly strong 6=4 hands with good hearts can open 2♣ (as can truly strong 5=5's if we play Kokish over 2♣ - 2♦).

When I show a big hand, I trust partner. And I don't stretch to jumpshift.

[Winstonm]

Although it hurts to agree with a Canadian about bidding - (Canadian definition of a good slam - 10 tricks and an American on lead) - MikeH is spot on in his views.

[Impact]

I think it is a combination of early Acol-induced training (including 4sf) and the useful space principle, which I was applying before it was published as USP - that leaves me in agreement with Frances: 3H sets H and after that short of a jump to the slam level, we are laying in H!!

Of course, it is interesting whether with an unknown partner from a different locality such inferences could be drawn - and had 4th suit been higher than reversion opener's first bid suit, it would have been harder to guess (without prior agreement).

My personal preference would be for lowest available bid as substitute 4sf (USP) but that is a long way from "standard practice" and not something I would pull on even an expert partner without discussion (I have mellowed).

However, if I was to sit down with an expert and minimum (say 2-5minutes max)bidding discussion revolving around some form of standard my inclination would be the following meta-agreements in order of priority:-

1. Useful Space Principle
2. Fit-showing jumps
3. New suit forcing
4. ???Majors opening
5. basis of minors
6. opening NT strength

regards