[1eyedjack]

N...E...S
1C..P...??
1C shows 4+ cards in the suit, 15-19(20) HCP if bal, NF
You are playing "standard" Acol (whatever that is) with a pickup partner.
You are not playing inverted raises

---

Consider, please, does 2♣ deny possession of a 4 card major, in your understanding of standard? If you vote for 1♠ because your interpretation of standard is that 2♣ would deny holding 4x♠ in standard, do you think that relaxing that agreement would be an improvement?

[1eyedjack]

I probably should have specified non-MatchPoint scoring. I would expect a virtually unanimous vote for 1♠ at MP, but if there is a case for 2♣ then I feel that the case is stronger at IMP. But strong enough?

[david_c]

Acol tends to allow for a lot of flexibility and judgement rather than rigid rules; a rule such as "raising clubs denies a 4-card major" sounds very un-Acol-like to me. So I don't think the raise denies 4 spades in "standard" (though local standards might vary).

Personally I am a big believer in raising on this type of hand. If the deal is competitive or a part-score then you almost certainly belong in clubs. Bidding spades first makes it more difficult to get this across. (For example if you bid 3♣ later partner may play you for a better hand.) And your hand is weak enough that if the deal is a game for your side, partner must have enough strength to bid again, and then you will get the chance to show spades when it's right to do so.

I bid 2♣ at any form of scoring, though I agree I am happier at IMPs.

[paulg]

What do you open with 4 clubs and 4 spades?

[1eyedjack]

cardsharp, on Oct 28 2007, 03:57 PM, said:

What do you open with 4 clubs and 4 spades?

Assuming 3-2 or 2-3 in the reds and out of NT opening range, "Standard English" teaches that you open 1♠. I have a strongly adverse personal opinion on the merits, but that is perhaps beside the point. I am interested to know why you think that the question is important, however. With 4-1 in the reds or with a 5th Club you would open 1♣.

One possible problem is that "Standard English" as developed in articles by Sandra Landy in English Bridge is aimed at beginners, where (arguably) the balance between accuracy and simplicity has been loaded heavily in favour of simplicity. There is nothing wrong with that, provided that the target audience is kept in focus.

Extending that point, you might take the view that no experienced player would adopt Acol as the foundation for their system, so that the fact that you are playing Acol at all implies a lack of experience and a priority on simplicity. I am not sure that this argument is entirely sustainable, and I encounter many good pairs who play a system that is more closely akin to Acol than any other, but which reverse many of the principles contained in Standard English (for beginners).

[1eyedjack]

Jlall, on Oct 28 2007, 04:10 PM, said:

KQxx x Axx KQxxx is a claimer game, is this really enough to suggest spades if partner couldn't? It won't be hard to get to game after 1S.

Could this be a "cart before the horse" issue? Certainly if 2C denies a 4 card Spade suit, then the hand is not strong enough to suggest Spades. However if he would routinely support Clubs with concealed Spades, then yes. It seems to me that 3C is safe, and if it should fail you reckon to beat par.

Personally I suspect that the merits hinge more on likely contested auctions than uncontested.

[helene_t]

Jlall, on Oct 28 2007, 05:10 PM, said:

Maybe I don't understand acol, does 1C deny spades or something? This is a major point because it is the main reason I think it's important to bid 1S.

(Just my 2 pennies' worth, I'm no Acol expert)

As 1eyedjack mentioned, "standard" Acol means that you open the longest suit and the major with two fourcards (but usually 1♣ with 4414). Besides, the fact that we hold ♣A reduces the chance that p has deviated from the rule due to suit quality discrepancy. This understanding is far from universal among ordinary club players, though (a popular textbook (Henderson) teaches minor first). Maybe a simulation should be based on a (say) 25% chance of opening 1♣ with 4324/4234.

Of course the major-first principle strengthens the case for 2♣ but in principle, 2♣ "denies" a 4-card major, by which I mean that you cannot show a 4-card major after having supported clubs. I think if p rebids 2M over our 2♣ he's showing a stopper, not necessarily length.

I might bid 3♣ if playing inverted minors. If p opened in 1st seat favorable I certainly would. As it is, I bid 1♠.

[EricK]

As your post implies, there is no such thing as "Standard" Acol. However, I think that traditionally this sort of hand (weak 4 card major, strong support for the minor, overall weak hand) would raise ♣ straightaway.

For what it's worth, here is an extract from "Acol in the 90s" by Reese & Bird:

Quote

When partner opens a minor suit you may have a choice between supporting him and bidding a major. The decision is swayed by the general strength of the hand and the texture of the two suits.
♠KJ96 ♥85 ♦A72 ♣T873
Bid 1♠ over partner's 1♣. On the next round you can accord modest support to ♣.
♠Q982 ♥T3 ♦KJ84 ♣953
Now a raise of 1♦ to 2♦ is preferred. You are too weak to bid ♠ and volunteer support for ♦, so you show the feature you know will interest partner. Let those who say "always respond in a four-card major" untie their own knots.

[han]

This thread hurts!

[P_Marlowe]

#1 yes 2C denies a 4 card mayor
#2 no, why should it?

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: Partner may well be 4333 with a
bal. 15-16 count.
The way I learned Acol, you opened the
lower ranking of two 4 card suits, i.e.
with clubs and spades, you open clubs.
But as was already stated there is no such
thing as Standard Acol, and I stopped playing
it 7 years ago, due to a lack of partners.

[paulg]

'Scottish' standard is to open a 4-card minor before a 4-card major, so everyone responds 1♠ with this hand. As Helene would, I tell them that they are really closet 5-card majorites.

In Standard English I'd respond 1♠ but expect most club players would simply raise.

Paul

[P_Marlowe]

helene_t, on Oct 28 2007, 10:28 AM, said:

<snip>
I think if p rebids 2M over our 2♣ he's showing a stopper, not necessarily length.
<snip>

Yes, and thats the reason why you have to bid
1S, else you may miss your most likely game,
which is 4S.

For that matter, partner will also open 1C with 5
clubs and 4 spades, and although this may mean
we have a 10 card club fit, I think going after 10
tricks may still be easier than going after 11 tricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[1eyedjack]

cardsharp, on Oct 29 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

In Standard English I'd respond 1♠

Is there a link to the Standard English recommendation, that supports that advice? I had a look at the EBU web site that reproduces Sandra Landy's articles, but responder's initial response does not seem to be addressed anywhere.

[helene_t]

With support for a minor suit, bid a major suit of your own first.

Par. 2.2.1

[the hog]

Playing Acol, this is a 1S bid, NOT 2C, and I don't care whether you play Standard English, Scottish, or my own preference Baronised Acol.

Playing Acol also does NOT necessarily mean that you open your longest suit. Traditionally for example holding a weakish 4-5 in the reds you open 1H and rebid 2D, or with 4-5 majors 1S followed by 2H. A lot of players eschew this now, and deservedly so. It seems to me that a lot of people commenting here are not familiar with Acol, traditional or modern tendencies included.

Today, modern Acolites will open 4-4 blacks with 1C and even a 4333 shape with 1C rather than 1M.

[Cascade]

Jlall, on Oct 29 2007, 04:10 AM, said:

david_c, on Oct 28 2007, 08:37 AM, said:

If the deal is competitive or a part-score then you almost certainly belong in clubs.

Why? Spades can outcompete hearts and diamonds, clubs cannot.

This is only true at the seven-level and most competitive auctions aren't at the seven level.

[paulg]

1eyedjack, on Oct 29 2007, 10:07 AM, said:

cardsharp, on Oct 29 2007, 09:28 AM, said:

In Standard English I'd respond 1♠

Is there a link to the Standard English recommendation, that supports that advice? I had a look at the EBU web site that reproduces Sandra Landy's articles, but responder's initial response does not seem to be addressed anywhere.

No. I meant 'if I were playing SE then ...'. In other words I think it is blindingly obvious to bid 1♠ here whatever you are playing

[Wackojack]

As to which suit you open with "out of 1NT range" balanced distributions with 2 four card suits. In my experience there are 2 schools in Acol. There are those that always open the a 4 card major in favour of a 4 card minor and there are those that bid up the line. There are rare hybrids: one where the major-minor opening is decided on the quality of the shorter suits and another is minor suit with check-back.

Incidentally one lady whom I taught to bid up the line because of its simplicity, telephoned me a few weeks ago telling me that she was playing in an Acol teaching session. She had a balanced 4 spades and 4 diamonds 15 HCP (playing 12-14 NT as is almost standard) and opened 1 diamond and rebid 1 spade to partner's 1 heart response. The teacher unequivocably told her that she should have opened 1 spade. When she protested that was not what she was taught, he brusquely told her to read the books. I had to tell her that I thought he was out of order. Also that there were advantages and disadvantages of each approach which I didn't thoroughly go into at the time.

Back to the thread. It seem to me that if you always open the 4 card major in favour of a 4card minor, then the raise in clubs looks to be an odds on winner. (but only just) Whereas if you bid up the line you cannot afford to supress the spade suit.