[andych]

Norwaigens open 1♠ with 5 cards but 1♥ with 4 cards. What is the advantage?

[firmit]

We like it natural I guess - we are naturalists! Thus 1♦ is 4+ and 1♣ is 3+ - and only 3 when 4-3-3-3.

Others use 5 card major - where 1♥ may include 4-4-3-2, opening 1♣ with 4-4-2-3 - maintaining 1♣ 3+, 1♦ 4+.

[Walddk]

firmit, on Oct 25 2007, 07:46 PM, said:

We like it natural I guess - we are naturalists! Thus 1♦ is 4+ and 1♣ is 3+ - and only 3 when 4-3-3-3.

Which means that 1♣ is 4+ roughly 95 times out of 100. If you play that (it is Danish Standard as well as Norwegian) every suit becomes a suit all of a sudden. It can't be a bad method given that Helness-Helgemo and Brogeland-Sælensminde play it.

Roland

[jdonn]

None of that really answers the question, which more specifically is "Why play 5+ spades and 4+ hearts instead of 4+ each if you like bidding naturally so much?" After all, playing 4 card majors you technically never have to open a suit of less than 4 (although I believe most still play 3+ 1♣.)

[whereagles]

There are some technical reasons to open a 3-card club eventhough you could open in your 4-card suit. Mainly, to keep bidding low.

[MickyB]

It's just a compromise between 4cM and 5cM, IMO, nothing particularly special about it.

Acol Strong NT used to use a prepared club, but that was back when people thought they had to 2/1 on eight-counts. If your objective is to keep the bidding low, don't play four-card majors.

[vang]

if i understood correctly, the rules are:
- with any 4-4 open lower suit (1♥ may be four cards only when specifically 4-4 majors)
- with any 4333 open 1♣ with 3/4 cards or 1♦ with 4 cards

this makes 1♠ 5+ cards. not exactly Acol, where you may open 1M with 4 cards in front of a 4 cards minor.

[cherdano]

Walddk, on Oct 25 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

firmit, on Oct 25 2007, 07:46 PM, said:

We like it natural I guess - we are naturalists! Thus 1♦ is 4+ and 1♣ is 3+ - and only 3 when 4-3-3-3.

Which means that 1♣ is 4+ roughly 95 times out of 100. If you play that (it is Danish Standard as well as Norwegian) every suit becomes a suit all of a sudden. It can't be a bad method given that Helness-Helgemo and Brogeland-Sælensminde play it.

Roland

So what, have these guys ever won anything important?

[andych]

Thanks. clarifications needed from vang and firmit answers.
4432 - open 1♥
4423 - open 1♥ or 1♣?
Moreover 1♥-2♥ how many card support?

[skjaeran]

vang, on Oct 25 2007, 09:16 PM, said:

if i understood correctly, the rules are:
- with any 4-4 open lower suit (1♥ may be four cards only when specifically 4-4 majors)
- with any 4333 open 1♣ with 3/4 cards or 1♦ with 4 cards

this makes 1♠ 5+ cards. not exactly Acol, where you may open 1M with 4 cards in front of a 4 cards minor.

Traditionally we've opened lowest 4-card suit in Norway. Acol was the main system since the 50's I believe (yes, many played Goren and Vienna).
This meant a 1♠ opener would have 5 spades more than 90% of the time. So during the 70's (I guess) this evolved into 1♠ absolutely promising 5 and thus 1♣ was opened with only 3 with specifically 4-3-3-3. 3-4-3-3/3-3-4-3 opened 1♥/1♦ respectively. Helgemo-Helness and Brogeland-Sælensminde belong to this school. (It's possible Brogeland-Sælensminde can open some hands 1♠ with only 4 - I'm not sure.)

In the 90's some (juniors) changed this again and opened 1♥ with 5c♥ or 44M. This has never become predominant, only a minority play like this (I've done so with a previous partner).

Today the majority play 5443. But a significant minority (mostly at high level) play 5cM 2/1. Transfer responses over 1♣ is growing in popularity, mostly by the juniors (and some still juniors in mind like me ).

[firmit]

cherdano, on Oct 25 2007, 09:25 PM, said:

Walddk, on Oct 25 2007, 11:58 AM, said:

firmit, on Oct 25 2007, 07:46 PM, said:

We like it natural I guess - we are naturalists! Thus 1♦ is 4+ and 1♣ is 3+ - and only 3 when 4-3-3-3.

(..) It can't be a bad method given that Helness-Helgemo and Brogeland-Sælensminde play it.

Roland

So what, have these guys ever won anything important?

lol

[andych]

Assume Helgemo-Helness and Brogeland-Sælensminde methods, some more queries ...

1. When does 1♥ opening shows only 4? 1♥-2♥ 3 or 4 card support?
2. 1NT - 2♠ = minor stayman. What is the response?
3. 1NT - 4♣/4♦ = transfer? 4♥/4♠ to play right?
4. 1♣ - 1♦ = natural ♦ or slam interest with 3+♣?
5. 1M - 1NT - 2NT is a convention?
6. When would 1♣ show only 3?
7. Any other diff from the common american methods?

[helene_t]

It used to be popular in NL as well, due to some influential players (i.e. text book authors) like Sint, Filarski and Niemeijer. For some reason most Dutch bridge teachers are antagonistic towards 5cM (except if it's spades or if they don't have a 4432/4423 or if they have to play the system themselves). Today almost everybody plays 5cM. Berry Westra always advocated 4444 but he now plays a Dutch Doubleton-like system himself.

I never understood the lowest-4card system. Seems to me that if you play "lowest 4-card" you're a closet 5-card-majorite and it would suit you to come out of the closet. 4cM when 12-14 (major 4-card takes preference) in combination with 5cM when 18-19 (Scanian, Tuwanokota), I can understand.

[skjaeran]

andych, on Oct 25 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Assume Helgemo-Helness and Brogeland-Sælensminde methods, some more queries ...

1.  When does 1♥ opening shows only 4?  1♥-2♥ 3 or 4 card support?

1♥=4 with 3433 or 4432/23. 1♥-2♥ will have 4 most of time, but you're of course allowed to raise with 3 on appropriate hands. Just like you can raise 1m-1M to 2M with 3.

Quote

2.  1NT - 2♠ = minor stayman.  What is the response?

The most frequent responses are 2NT=longer diamonds, else 3♣. You can bid 2♠ with weak or strong hand, one or both minors. After openers response you can pass or bid 3m to play, 3M is GF+ with both m shortness or fragment as you like. Not sure how HH play it though.

Quote

3.  1NT - 4♣/4♦ = transfer?  4♥/4♠ to play right?

Yes.

Quote

4.  1♣ - 1♦ = natural ♦ or slam interest with 3+♣?

1♣-1♦ is always natural for both pairs as far as I know. Walsh type for both i think. HH used to play 1♣-1♦-1x-2♣ as slammish with ♦ + 3+♣. Don't know that they've changed anything here.

Quote

5.  1M - 1NT - 2NT is a convention?

Conventional GF, responder can show 5m/55m/5♥/4♥/Hx support.

Quote

6.  When would 1♣ show only 3?

With 4-3-3-3 for HH. I think it's the same for BS.

Quote

7.  Any other diff from the common american methods?

Better judgement.

[vang]

skaeran, on Oct 25 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

Quote

5.  1M - 1NT - 2NT is a convention?

Conventional GF, responder can show 5m/55m/5♥/4♥/Hx support.

can you detail this, please?

[andych]

skaeran, on Oct 25 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

andych, on Oct 25 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Assume Helgemo-Helness and Brogeland-Sælensminde methods, some more queries ...

1.  When does 1♥ opening shows only 4?  1♥-2♥ 3 or 4 card support?

1♥=4 with 3433 or 4432/23. 1♥-2♥ will have 4 most of time, but you're of course allowed to raise with 3 on appropriate hands. Just like you can raise 1m-1M to 2M with 3.

What is the average no. of ♥ with this method please?
BTW is 1♥ - 1NT forcing? 2over1 FG? Diff treatment for 1♥ and 1♠ opening?

[andych]

vang, on Oct 25 2007, 09:45 PM, said:

skaeran, on Oct 25 2007, 11:00 PM, said:

Quote

5.  1M - 1NT - 2NT is a convention?

Conventional GF, responder can show 5m/55m/5♥/4♥/Hx support.

can you detail this, please?

1♥ - 1NT - 2NT
3♣/♦ = 5 card suit
3♥ = 3 card ♥
3♠ = 3244
3NT = 55 minor

1♠ - 1NT - 2NT
3♣ = either 5 card minor
3♦ = 4 card ♥
3♥ = 5 card ♥
3♠ = 2344
3NT = 55 minor

[skjaeran]

andych, on Oct 26 2007, 04:49 AM, said:

skaeran, on Oct 25 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

andych, on Oct 25 2007, 09:58 PM, said:

Assume Helgemo-Helness and Brogeland-Sælensminde methods, some more queries ...

1.  When does 1♥ opening shows only 4?  1♥-2♥ 3 or 4 card support?

1♥=4 with 3433 or 4432/23. 1♥-2♥ will have 4 most of time, but you're of course allowed to raise with 3 on appropriate hands. Just like you can raise 1m-1M to 2M with 3.

What is the average no. of ♥ with this method please?
BTW is 1♥ - 1NT forcing? 2over1 FG? Diff treatment for 1♥ and 1♠ opening?

Both Helgemo-Helness and Brogeland-Sælensminde play 1M-1NT as non-forcing. Same treatment after both majors.

Average number of hearts? I don't know. Probably somewhere near 4.5 or just above - I'm guessing though.

[han]

I'd say the average number of hearts is well above 4.5, maybe close to 5.

[bhall]

In the 12-14 HCP range, 3=4=3=3 occurs 2.5% of the time, 4=4=3=2 and 4=4=2=3 each about 1.8%, 4=4=1=4 about 0.75%, and all the rest about 15%. So, the odds are easily 2:1 that opener holds 5 or more.