[Hanoi5]

If your partner transfers over 2NT do you always accept?

2NT-3♦
3♥ (even with 2 hearts)

Or do you show how many hearts you have:
2NT-3♦
3♥ (at least 3 hearts)
3NT (only 2 hearts)

Or reversed?:
2NT-3♦
3♥ (only 2 hearts)
3NT (at least 3 hearts)

[ralph23]

Unless we are super-accepting (e.g. with a max hand, 4 trumps and shortness), we just make a simple acceptance.

Responder will sometimes have a real dog and just want to park in 3♥, so bidding 3nt just based on the opener's heart-count, without more, does not seem like a good idea.

Also, opener can use a conventional 3nt response to 3♦ in the partnership's super-acceptance structure, where it may be more useful.

This post has been edited by ralph23: 2007-October-08, 12:52

[mikeh]

I always accept the transfer, unless I can super-accept. I super-accept with 4 card support and a hand heavy in Aces and Kings, rather than Queens and Jacks.. and I will super-accept with good 20's as well as 21's (my range is ostensibly 20-21, but includes a lot of good 19s...almost always 5332 hands with texture).

I have heard of the style that rejects the transfer with only 2 card support, but I think it is terrible.

The reality is that there will be some hands on which partner is bust. xxx Qxxxxx xxx xx will usually play better in 3♥ than in either 2 or 3N. Yet if opener doesn't accept with 2 card support, either responder has to pass 2n or risk partner forcing to game on a hand that should be downgraded, due to lack of fit, rather than upgraded.

These hands will be a minority, but they happen, and unless the upside from the 'rejection' with 2 card support is substantial, the cost is too high.

BTW, I have played several complex methods of responding to 2N, and all of them, and the simple ones as well, entail opener accepting the transfer except with a great hand and a good 4 card fit. In fairness, I should mention that all of the complex methods use multiple meanings for 3♦... ostensibly a transfer to hearts, but may be on various other hands as well, and these structures limit the ability to bid anything other than acceptance or 3♠ as an artificial super-acceptance. We need the room to differentiate the other hand-types, so cannot, for example, allow opener to rebid 3N to show 3 card support: but even if we could do this, I wouldn't because:

1) it takes us too high when responder is bust
2) it makes responder choose whether to pass 3N on the 5-3 or bid major... and it will usually be opener who is best positioned to make that decision

[ralph23]

mikeh, on Oct 8 2007, 02:58 PM, said:

BTW, I have played several complex methods of responding to 2N, and all of them, and the simple ones as well, entail opener accepting the transfer except with a great hand and a good 4 card fit.

I just re-worked our partnership's super-acceptance rules and made this a rule: To super-accept, opener must have all of (1) a "max point" hand (however he counts this is his business, i.e. value-up Aces & Kings, whatever); (2) 4 trumps; and (3) a doubleton.

We had a presentation at our club which advocated super-acceptance on simply factor (1) -- a max point hand -- but I don't care for that at all. I found the idea of super-accepting on any 4333 shape, or with a doubleton in the responder's suit, to be misguided. Responder after all has the total dog hand sometimes.... it's not so rare in my experience....

[kenrexford]

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, then I will not honor the transfer because of a doubleton only in one circumstance. With two spades and five hearts, I'll bid 3NT in response to a transfer to spades.

Normally, however, a simple aceptance simply denies ability to super-accept. I don't personally think that 4-card support is required. Tricks are required, and that might include a three-card hand. The space is simply too limited to worry so much about 4-card support over 5-card support.

There are some who think that 4-card support is required. I don't really get that, as the LTT level is bypassed anyway unless I have five-card support. 4-card trumps are nice, but this is a do-or-don't situation, and the lack of a fourth trump is only one factor to me.

The range of, say, 20-21 seems tight, but the value of cards and location thereof is radically different for some hands within that range.

If I analyze these hands:

♠AQxx ♥Axx ♦AKxx ♣Ax
♠AQx ♥Axx ♦AKxxx ♣Ax
♠xx ♥KQJx ♦KQJx ♣AKJ

The second is wildly closer to the first than to the third. I clearly super-accept with the first and not with the third. I think I have to super-accept with the second to make sense.

[Cascade]

kenrexford, on Oct 9 2007, 08:14 AM, said:

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, ...

I just love this name.

Where did it come from and what is the process for naming these things.

This is something that I have played for many years without any knowledge that it had a name.

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Oct 8 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 9 2007, 08:14 AM, said:

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, ...

I just love this name.

Where did it come from and what is the process for naming these things.

This is something that I have played for many years without any knowledge that it had a name.

The names came from our ancestors, as they played bridge around the fire, celebrating their Wooly Mammoth kill.

Actually, I just call it this because I have heard that Jim Batchelder invented the approach, at least the version I like.

[Fluffy]

I play GF transfer, and accept setting up a fit, bidding 3NT (or 3♠) with 2 cards.

[1eyedjack]

kenrexford, on Oct 8 2007, 09:14 PM, said:

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, then I will not honor the transfer because of a doubleton only in one circumstance. With two spades and five hearts, I'll bid 3NT in response to a transfer to spades.

Yup, will also bid 3S in response to 3D tfr to Hearts, when holding 5 Spades and 2 Hearts.

[TheoKole]

I always simply accept the transfer unless I have a 4 trump fit and a maximum or near maximum with shape.

Partner promises 5+ hearts, (almost always 5) in my experience, and 0 points.

There are many times were partner would want to pass your transfer, but he can't do this if you continue to describe your hand, after the captaincy of the bidding has been passed over to him.

Cheers,

Theo

[joker_gib]

I play :

2NT 3♦

3♥ : ♥/2
3♠ : ♥/2, ♠/5
3NT : ♥/3, ♠ cue
4x : ♥/3, x cue

2NT 3♥

3♠ : ♠/2
3NT :♠/2, ♥/5
4x : ♠/3, x cue

Simple and effective but the downside is it is GF when you reply to 2NT

Alain

[kenrexford]

1eyedjack, on Oct 9 2007, 02:52 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 8 2007, 09:14 PM, said:

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, then I will not honor the transfer because of a doubleton only in one circumstance.  With two spades and five hearts, I'll bid 3NT in response to a transfer to spades.

Yup, will also bid 3S in response to 3D tfr to Hearts, when holding 5 Spades and 2 Hearts.

That's not a problem hand with Batchelder Puppet.

The problem hand catered would be partner with five hearts and three spades. If your response is 3NT (44 majors) or 3S (five spades) or 3H (4+ hearts), he has no problem. If your response is 3D (2-3♥/2-4♠), he is not concerned about spades and can ask about hearts only (3♠).

[barmar]

At the club last night partner opened 2NT with ♠J72 ♥AKQ72 ♦A93 ♣AK. I transfered to ♥(!), and partner superaccepted. Down 1 due to mirror distribution; my hand was ♠Q63 ♥T9864 ♦J72 ♣73.

But probably everyone was in the game, so we got an average. One pair made it, presumably on helpful defense (a ruff-sluff in ♣, presumably). Some went down 2, so maybe some of the other -50's were pairs that stopped in 3 but also went down.

[awm]

Something I've noticed is that the queen and jack of the trump suit are often wasted cards when you are deciding whether to super-accept.

Looking at barmar's example hand, game would be a lot better if the ♥Q+♦3 were replaced with ♥3+♦Q. Then even with the mirror distribution, you would make if hearts are 2-1 and either ♦K is onside (throw in) or the spade honors are together. This is likely to be over 50%.

[barmar]

Right, although on that hand trumps were also 3-0 offside, which would have been another trick for the defense if they had the Q instead of us.

In pretty much all the hands I can picture (such as the examples Ken posted above), making game opposite a partner who would have passed the normal transfer acceptance will still require some luck. As Ken said, you need tricks, not just a trump fit. Since the 2NT bidder is balanced, he's not going to be able to develop any suits. If he has Axx in trumps and Ax in a side suit, he may be able to get one ruff in his hand. To make 4, he'll probably need a winning finesse and 3-2 trumps as well.

[kenrexford]

I don't think that the actual viability of game opposite a bust hand is the key question. I analyze the circumstances more generally. Consider circumstance types:

1. Hands where nothing makes
2. Hands where three makes, but no more, opposite the perfect hand
3. Hands where game makes if Opener has the perfect hand
4. Hands where game will be bid and make no matter what
5. Hands where slam makes opposite the perfect hand
6. Hands where slam makes no matter what and will be bid.

With super-acceptances, I get to game on 3 and to slam on 5. Further, I stop on 5 at the 4-level more often when five is in jeopardy. I sacrifice and extra trick on 1 and a partscore on 2. I may also protect, however, a partscore on 3.

Without supers, I protect a trick on 1, protect a partscore on two, lose a partscore on three, and either lose a slam or lose a game on 5.

I think the rewards pay here, at IMPs at least.

[Free]

joker_gib, on Oct 9 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

I play :

2NT 3♦

3♥ : ♥/2
3♠ : ♥/2, ♠/5
3NT : ♥/3, ♠ cue
4x : ♥/3, x cue

2NT 3♥

3♠ : ♠/2
3NT :♠/2, ♥/5
4x : ♠/3, x cue

Simple and effective but the downside is it is GF when you reply to 2NT

Alain

I play the same.

It's only GF when you have a fit, responder is allowed to pass the acceptance of the transfer... It's not a huge disadvantage, the times that you only want to play 3M are quite rare. On the other hand, your slam bidding improves significantly although you're not able to find 4-4 minor fits anymore.

[Free]

kenrexford, on Oct 8 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

Cascade, on Oct 8 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 9 2007, 08:14 AM, said:

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, ...

I just love this name.

Where did it come from and what is the process for naming these things.

This is something that I have played for many years without any knowledge that it had a name.

The names came from our ancestors, as they played bridge around the fire, celebrating their Wooly Mammoth kill.

Actually, I just call it this because I have heard that Jim Batchelder invented the approach, at least the version I like.

Dunno where you know this Jim Batchelder from, but this is just the response scheme Romex uses...

[kenrexford]

Free, on Oct 11 2007, 03:15 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 8 2007, 10:42 PM, said:

Cascade, on Oct 8 2007, 03:48 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Oct 9 2007, 08:14 AM, said:

If I am playing Batchelder Puppet, ...

I just love this name.

Where did it come from and what is the process for naming these things.

This is something that I have played for many years without any knowledge that it had a name.

The names came from our ancestors, as they played bridge around the fire, celebrating their Wooly Mammoth kill.

Actually, I just call it this because I have heard that Jim Batchelder invented the approach, at least the version I like.

Dunno where you know this Jim Batchelder from, but this is just the response scheme Romex uses...

Really?

Just to make sure they are the same:

3♣ asks.

Opener bids:

3NT = 44
3S = 5♠
3♥ = 4-5♥ (3♠ asks if 5)
3♦ = 2-4♠/2-3♥; 3♥ asks about spades (3♠=3, 3N=2, high=4); 3♠ asks if 2 or 3 hearts
3♦...3♠ is 5♥/4♠
3♥ is bid with 5♠, 2-3♥; Opener can bid 3NT with 2♠/5♥

If that's the same as Romex, I been befrauded!!!

[jdonn]

(Ken impression to follow. Just kidding)

Though I have seen a lot of similar things to this, I think a puppet stayman version I made up a while ago is the only one I have seen which
- Finds all major suit fits, including 5-3 with opener having 5 or with responder having 5 in a smolen hand.
- Has opener declare 100% of these fits (avoids like in the above where responder bids spades first with 4-5 majors)
I have seen others playing at least one or most of these bids, but never seen any other entire structure that has both those qualities. It is a lot to remember and reveals a lot about opener's hand sometimes and gives them lots of lead directing double possibilities, but I like the certain-rightsiding aspect. Heck at least it would be good for bidding polls!

2NT 3♣
3♦ = either no 4 card major or 4 spades.
-----3♥ = Asking opener's spade length. He bids 3♠ with 3 or 4 (then 3NT by responder if HE has 4) or 3NT with 2.
-----3♠ = bid 3NT (responder can show other hands over that)
-----3NT = 5 hearts and 4 spades.
-----(can play 4♣ or something is 6 hearts and 4 spades, if finding 4-4 is a big priority to you.)
3♥ = 4 hearts, may or may not have 4 spades.
-----3♠ = bid 3NT (responder can show other hands over that)
-----3NT = 4 spades.
3♠ = 5 spades.
3NT = 5 hearts.

I once wrote up detailed followups to everything, but I think those are long since lost.

Note this also gives you more followups after transfers since all hands with both majors can start with stayman. So you can play 3♦ then 3♠ is, for example, 'any splinter for hearts' similar to after a 1NT opening.