[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     2♣    Pass  2♦
 Dbl   2♥    Pass  3♣
 Pass  4♣    Pass  4♦
 Pass  4♠    Pass  5♥
 Pass  6♣    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

I was playing with an expert (I believe a genuine one)

the 4 diamond bid should I take that as the Ace and what did I do wrong

how would you all bid this

[awm]

The bidding is great up through 4♦. At this point, north can count some tricks:

One spade
At least five hearts (ruffing out the suit)
One diamond (partner's apparent ace)
Six clubs (assuming partner has queen-fifth or better, and we get one diamond ruff)

That's already thirteen tricks.

Cuebidding helps you find control cards. If north needed a missing heart honor it would make sense to cue. But it's hard to use cuebidding to tell partner "bid the grand if you have club queen or extra club length." I think north should bid keycard over 4♦, basically to look for the ♣Q (and incidentally to confirm that the diamond cuebid was ace).

[han]

I'd use blackwood.

[hatchett]

I'd bid grand slam force over 4♦

[sceptic]

Quote

I'd bid grand slam force over 4♦

can you explain that a bit better for me please

[han]

Why would grand slam force work better than blackwood?

[helene_t]

Any particular reason why North rather than South should use Blacky? Is it just that North is the first to know that all suits are under control?

[han]

North knows far more about the hand than south.

[Fluffy]

Hannie, on Oct 7 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Why would grand slam force work better than blackwood?

It works better when you don't knwo how to ask for trump queen after blackwood .


Grand Slam Force is a jump to 5NT without using 4NT before, it asks specifically for trump Ace, King and Queen, with step responses (6♣=0, 6♦=1, 6♥=2, 6♠=3)

[ArtK78]

If 3♣ is natural, I bid RKCB immediately. When partner shows a key card and (after I ask) the club Q or equivalent extra length, I bid the grand in clubs.

[Rebound]

Fluffy, on Oct 7 2007, 03:12 PM, said:

Hannie, on Oct 7 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Why would grand slam force work better than blackwood?

It works better when you don't knwo how to ask for trump queen after blackwood .


Grand Slam Force is a jump to 5NT without using 4NT before, it asks specifically for trump Ace, King and Queen, with step responses (6♣=0, 6♦=1, 6♥=2, 6♠=3)

I'm afraid that with clubs as trump that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Taking the 6♦ response as an example, if one of the top 3 isn't enough for the grand, you've already by-passed 6♣. On the auction, I don't see anything to suggest 6NT is safe if only 1 of the top 3 is not enough for the grand.

The odds are I'm missing something though, so I invite further information about this treatment.

[ralph23]

Rebound, on Oct 7 2007, 06:24 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Oct 7 2007, 03:12 PM, said:

Hannie, on Oct 7 2007, 06:18 PM, said:

Why would grand slam force work better than blackwood?

It works better when you don't knwo how to ask for trump queen after blackwood .


Grand Slam Force is a jump to 5NT without using 4NT before, it asks specifically for trump Ace, King and Queen, with step responses (6♣=0, 6♦=1, 6♥=2, 6♠=3)

I'm afraid that with clubs as trump that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Taking the 6♦ response as an example, if one of the top 3 isn't enough for the grand, you've already by-passed 6♣. On the auction, I don't see anything to suggest 6NT is safe if only 1 of the top 3 is not enough for the grand.

The odds are I'm missing something though, so I invite further information about this treatment.

The traditional Grand Slam Force is 5nt, asking partner to bid the grand with 2 of the top 3 honors, and to bid a small slam otherwise. That is the "force" aspect -- partner is "forced" to at least a small slam. (The convention's name is somewhat of a misnomer therefore...).

You can make some mods to that for refinement, which mods (like Blackwood itself) work great when ♠ and trumps, and not very well at all when ♣ are trump.

[kenberg]

If 3C is natural and 4D is an ace, surely there must be about 15 tricks playing in clubs. I suppose the problem here is that no one is quite sure what their bids mean. Looking at South's sequence it appears that he is playing that you must have a strong suit to bid 3C over 2C. That means that he plays a more or less automatic 2D. But then most people who play 2D as semi-forced usually play a second negative. In which case 3C is not clubs, it's a bad hand. My own preference is that if I play that a suit response to 2C shows two of the top three then I banish that agreement specifically for 2C-3C. Otherwise, after 2C-2D-2H, a bid of 3C is negative. Over 2C-2D-2N, a bid of 3C is Stayman (and possibly 4C is Gerber). Very hard to show clubs.

Really I would chalk this up to no one being quite sure who is showing what. If on the other hand you did know that 3C was clubs and 4D was an ace, I would suggest bidding 8C. There should be a play for it.