[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

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West North East South

 1♠    2♥    Pass  3♦
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

[Fluffy]

pass and 3 hearts are close, if you know your partner you should pass, since he obviously bids at the 2 level undisciplined.

[gwnn]

Passsssssssssss you have a bad hand, 3 ♠'s, 2♥'s. Vice versa you would be worth 3♥.

3♦ on a 5 card suit? maybe KQJTx

[Quantumcat]

Fluffy, on Oct 6 2007, 05:36 AM, said:

pass and 3 hearts are close, if you know your partner you should pass, since he obviously bids at the 2 level undisciplined.

What is the standard range for overcalls at the 2 level? For me, 9 - 11 with a great suit and you like your hand very much for whatever reason (you would have to have a really good reason with 9 tho), 12 with a not-as-interesting hand. Flat 17 count at the most. So his overcall doesn't look undisciplined to me at all ... spade honours in the right places, a pretty ok suit, a bit of shape, some aces, no Q doubletons. What's wrong with his bid? Do you only overcall with 15 counts or something? That must be why too that people are suggesting bidding 3♥, if overcaller must be allowed to have a 19 or 20 count.

[kenberg]

When partner overcalls 1S with 2H, vul, and you hold Kx, it is reasonable to assume your side can take six tricks in hearts. May not be true, and isn't true here, but reasonable. The ace of diamonds is another trick. Enough to encourage?

I voted pass, but it could be I would regret it. For example if E leads the spade 9 and W takes his Ace against 3NT then all this optimistic bidding looks to be very clever. No such luck I suppose. Bidding on the assumption of mis-defense probably isn't a great strategy. (Another thread discusses bidding on the assumption of a squeeze. Probably also not a great strategy.)


It is interesting to speculate on what happens if S passes 2H. West does what? If he reopens with X, will E try to play for penalties? If so, he will regret it. If not, what happens over 3C by E? As S, I might try 3H here. The heart stack will probably beat 3H, but it depends on the choices made by the defense. For example spade to the ace, ruff, club back and there are 2+5+1+1=9 tricks. Another mis-defense but it seems possible it would go that way. Note that if N had a six card suit (trade a N club for an E heart say) as might be expected from a vul 2H overcall missing the king, this line of defense leads to 4H making.

Anyway, I pass, with a heart raise a distant second choice.

[matmat]

mind you, i am not crazy about 2h

[goodwintr]

I voted for Pass, but I am also not crazy about two hearts. What ever happened to the idea that length in the enemy suit is a danger signal when you are considering an overcall?

[Fluffy]

Quantumcat, on Oct 5 2007, 08:42 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Oct 6 2007, 05:36 AM, said:

pass and 3 hearts are close, if you know your partner you should pass, since he obviously bids at the 2 level undisciplined.

What is the standard range for overcalls at the 2 level? For me, 9 - 11 with a great suit and you like your hand very much for whatever reason (you would have to have a really good reason with 9 tho), 12 with a not-as-interesting hand. Flat 17 count at the most. So his overcall doesn't look undisciplined to me at all ... spade honours in the right places, a pretty ok suit, a bit of shape, some aces, no Q doubletons. What's wrong with his bid? Do you only overcall with 15 counts or something? That must be why too that people are suggesting bidding 3♥, if overcaller must be allowed to have a 19 or 20 count.

2 level non jump overcalls show opening values AND 6 GOOD cards, you might lack the 6 cards if you have extra strenght, but not the values (you can always bid 3 hearts then).

2 level non jump overcalls aren't meant to jam opponents, they are constructive.

I might look a silly and lonely spaniard on many things I say on this forums, but I know this is not one of them, most people play it this way. In Spain players who overcall wih 5 cards or without values are the ones who tend to make below 50% every season.

[kenberg]

Fluffy, on Oct 5 2007, 06:41 PM, said:

I might look a silly and lonely spaniard

And I thought you were a fierce looking gato.
That is the right word for cat, isn't it? Have to be careful. My daughter went into a bar in Madrid and asked for a glass of sangre. Ah, these senoritas Americanas can be a trip.

Anyway I regard Kx as trump support if my partner overcalls at the 2 level. And maybe xx in a pinch.

[paulg]

Jlall, on Oct 6 2007, 03:06 AM, said:

People on the forums have really gone overboard with the disciplined 2 level overcalls stuff. I would overcall all day and don't think it's close, it's a fine suit and a fine hand. Downgrading for KJ8x in the opps suit seems really wrong, they will often just lead the suit into you and the honors are more likely to be onside, etc. Dummy will be overruffing assuming both people are short. I mean really how do you ever bid any light HCP games with a good fit if you are passing here? You really just need very little for a game. Add to that that bidding 2H makes it a lot more difficult for the opps to find a diamond fit, bidding 2H gets you a good lead vs 3N, you can push the opps up/compete for the partscore, etc etc.

I knew sense would prevail.

Paul ... aka North

[neilkaz]

Jlall, on Oct 5 2007, 09:06 PM, said:

People on the forums have really gone overboard with the disciplined 2 level overcalls stuff. I would overcall all day and don't think it's close, it's a fine suit and a fine hand. Downgrading for KJ8x in the opps suit seems really wrong, they will often just lead the suit into you and the honors are more likely to be onside, etc. Dummy will be overruffing assuming both people are short. I mean really how do you ever bid any light HCP games with a good fit if you are passing here? You really just need very little for a game. Add to that that bidding 2H makes it a lot more difficult for the opps to find a diamond fit, bidding 2H gets you a good lead vs 3N, you can push the opps up/compete for the partscore, etc etc.

Bravo ! I also overcall 2♥ all day long here with a very sound opening hand and a good 5 card suit and my ♠ honors likely onside to boot.

I don't understand the strict requirements some players still maintain for 2 level overcalls, and yet some of these players' range for a 1 level overcall is 5+ to 19- HCP.

I also feel that it is harder to get caught and X'd disasterously with a 2 level overcall with everyone playing negative doubles and no one playing a direct penalty double...perhaps I don't play vs strong enough players .. but usually someone has bid by the time it is passed around to opener to reopen with an X and then passed out.

In response to the 2♥, I think it is close, but I pass. I have only 2 card support for PD and 7 HCP and no ruffing values if ♥ is trump. If PD is max , I may miss a game, but even then, sometimes opener reopens and saves us, or gets their side into deep water.

[skjaeran]

I'd also overcall 2♥ all day long with that hand. You really need to get in or you might easily have a big problem coming in at all when it's your hand.

I'm more reluctant to overcall in a minor suit though. I'd still do it with this hand, but then it's more borderline to me.

[kenberg]

Jlall, on Oct 5 2007, 09:06 PM, said:

People on the forums have really gone overboard with the disciplined 2 level overcalls stuff. I would overcall all day and don't think it's close, it's a fine suit and a fine hand. Downgrading for KJ8x in the opps suit seems really wrong, they will often just lead the suit into you and the honors are more likely to be onside, etc. Dummy will be overruffing assuming both people are short. I mean really how do you ever bid any light HCP games with a good fit if you are passing here? You really just need very little for a game. Add to that that bidding 2H makes it a lot more difficult for the opps to find a diamond fit, bidding 2H gets you a good lead vs 3N, you can push the opps up/compete for the partscore, etc etc.

OK. But how about a raise on Kx? Make the spade 5 the club 5. This might tempt me and it would tempt me to bid 3H, not 3D. My thinking is that when partner enters in at the 2 level vul, he is supposed to be able to handle trumps with only modest help from me. Wrong?

[Codo]

I agree that you need a good hand OR a good suit for an overcall.
The north hand is a full and good opener and the suit is not too bad at all, so 2 Heart is as automatic as a pass with Waynes hand.

If you make his hand a little stronger, 3 HEart is the next bid. 3 Diamond is far far away.