[jillybean]

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ 764 ♥ QT9 ♦ K65 ♣ J973

West North East South

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1NT
 Pass  Pass  2♦    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   Pass  ?
  

Your bid

[BillHiggin]

Justification for the 1N bid = "it was my turn to bid"
On good days, we get to the play portion before we endplay ourself.

[jtfanclub]

jillybean2, on Oct 3 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

West North East South
 Pass  1♣    1♦    1NT
 Pass  Pass  2♦    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   Pass  ?
  

Your bid

1NT, IMHO, should deny a 4 card major, so the X here cannot be takeout.

I'll pass and lead a club. Just my usual non-expert opinion.

[FrancesHinden]

3♣. Can't see anything else attractive...
With an imaginative partner you could try 2♥ on the basis that you would have bid a 4-card heart suit last round unless you had very good diamonds, and if you had very good diamonds you would be passing the double. But this is a little risky.

[vang]

pass and hope they won't make too many in plus.

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Oct 3 2007, 06:40 PM, said:

1NT, IMHO, should deny a 4 card major, so the X here cannot be takeout.

Double, of course, is whatever you have agreed it to be.
In the "penalties" camp is the idea that 1NT defined your hand, so partner has no need to make a take-out double. I agree this is a reasonable argument - it's not a stupid meaning.

In the "take-out" camp (mine) is the idea that partner wants to bid, but is doubling in case you have a real diamond stack. If he has, say, Kxx Axxx x AKxxx he doesn't want to defend 2D undoubled, but he doesn't want to bid in case you have KJ109 of diamonds. I think this hand type is more likely than a penalty double

[Quantumcat]

I have a question, I thought 1♥/1♠ there (instead of 1NT) would show five cards, but is that only when another major has been bid so a negative double only has to show one major? Because I guess if you had four of a major, no diamond stop and not four of the other major you wouldn't have anything to bid, would you. But it's only when it goes 1♣ - (1♦) - ? that a major would be only four right?

[cherdano]

Quantumcat, on Oct 3 2007, 11:47 AM, said:

I have a question, I thought 1♥/1♠ there (instead of 1NT) would show five cards, but is that only when another major has been bid so a negative double only has to show one major? Because I guess if you had four of a major, no diamond stop and not four of the other major you wouldn't have anything to bid, would you. But it's only when it goes 1♣ - (1♦) - ? that a major would be only four right?

It's exactly as you say, 1M on the auction here shows 4+.

[vuroth]

Is partner really looking to play in a 4-3 major? More importantly, is that worth giving up a penalty double for?

I don't have a problem passing this. If it makes, c'est la vie, and even then, my pass isn't the main culprit.

V

[Quantumcat]

It has to be a penalty double doesn't it? I've shown my hand already. It would be risky for him to be looking for a 4-3 major fit with no interest in penalising them, what if I was 2-2 .... actually hang on, then I'd have 9 minor cards and either a genuine pass or a 3♣ bid. So actually it makes sense as a take out double. (I have to have either a 2♥/2♠ bid, a 3♣ bid, or a pass). If it is taken that way, the person has to choose to bid 2♥/2♠??

[pclayton]

This is a very interesting question. What kind of hand passes 1N, and then decides to double 2♦?

I think this double is 100% takeout. Imagine this: You are looking at a 4414 or a 4405 and pard bids 1N over the 1♦ overcall. Not exactly excited are we? My guess is that we'd frequently pass. We can't reverse and maybe our clubs aren't good enough to rebid.

LHO now competes with 2♦. We still want to compete and a double perfectly describes this hand.

Accordingly, the OP's hand cannot think about penalizing 2♦. 3♣ is clear to me.

[jtfanclub]

pclayton, on Oct 3 2007, 01:01 PM, said:

I think this double is 100% takeout. Imagine this: You are looking at a 4414 or a 4405 and pard bids 1N over the 1♦ overcall. Not exactly excited are we? My guess is that we'd frequently pass. We can't reverse and maybe our clubs aren't good enough to rebid.

Normally, I wouldn't leave that in 1NT. Partner likely has some clubs, and no more than 1 diamond stop. We're probably a good two tricks more in clubs than in No Trump.

If I was going to leave it in No Trump, then it would be because my clubs were crap. If my clubs are crap, I don't want to X 2♦, because that'll just put us in 2NT or 3♣, when I thought 2♣ wasn't a good contract. Bleah.

If I had a hand like:

AJxx
AKQx
x
9876

I'd bid 2♥, not X. That's a clear offer to play in a 4-3 heart fit even if partner has xxx in hearts. An X...not so much.

[Quantumcat]

If you bid 2♥, what if you end up in either a 4-2 heart fit or 3♣ with 9876 opposite J32? With a double you can penalty if pard has good diamonds and also find the 4-3 ♥ fit and also play in 3♣ if pard has okay clubs...

[vuroth]

If it's a takeout double, partner needs to be showing a near-max pass, with 4414 or 4405. A takeout in this case is pretty much direction to either convert or bid 3C. Partner needs to have accounted for the possiblity that I'm 3352 and a minimum.

I can live with that, and maybe it's more common than partner having a hand strong enough to want to penalize 2♦ but weak enough that 3NT holds no appeal.

I'd certainly want to know partner was on the same page, though, either way.

V

[jtfanclub]

Quantumcat, on Oct 3 2007, 01:24 PM, said:

If you bid 2♥, what if you end up in either a 4-2 heart fit or 3♣ with 9876 opposite J32? With a double you can penalty if pard has good diamonds and also find the 4-3 ♥ fit and also play in 3♣ if pard has okay clubs...

Not one person has suggested bidding 2♥ over the X. So you just missed the 4-3 heart fit.

Landing in a 4-2 heart fit is silly. I don't know what i'm going to say over 1NT with 6 clubs and 5 hearts, but it's not pass. Partner heard my opening, and my pass of 1NT. He's not going to decide just because I later bid 2♥ that I found a heart on the floor.

I'm not worried about keeping the 1NT bidder having a penalty X, because if there's another possible meaning of:

1♣ 1♦ 1NT P
-P- 2♦ X

I'd like to hear what it is.

Having the X by opener be "I like playing in a 4-3 fit in both majors" seems reasonable to me, but then I'm not sure why people are suggesting 3♣ as the response. After all, you have a very nice heart suit to complement a 4-3 fit.

[whereagles]

gonna bid 2♥. I can't have 4 of them, can I?

[mike777]

jillybean2, on Oct 3 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ 764 ♥ QT9 ♦ K65 ♣ J973

West North East South

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1NT
 Pass  Pass  2♦    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   Pass  ?
  

Your bid

Great post, I really think 1nt here in this beginner forum deserves more discussion.
I would think pass not 1nt was clear....

[cherdano]

I agree with Mike!

[mikeh]

I also agree that 1N was an overbid. I don't generally agree with the old-fashioned idea that a 'free bid' shows extras, but a free bid of 1N does. It should, in my view, deliver a good 7 - 10 hcp, and we have a poor 6: poor because we have no trace of a second diamond stopper. I will sometimes stretch: give me a good 6 count including KJx of diamonds, and I might well upgrade, since the KJx will probably play slightly above their weight.

Having perpetrated the 1N, it is clear to pull to 3♣ and I echo all that Frances has posted.

[jdeegan]

mikeh, on Oct 3 2007, 02:30 PM, said:

I also agree that 1N was an overbid. I don't generally agree with the old-fashioned idea that a 'free bid' shows extras, but a free bid of 1N does. It should, in my view, deliver a good 7 - 10 hcp, and we have a poor 6: poor because we have no trace of a second diamond stopper. I will sometimes stretch: give me a good 6 count including KJx of diamonds, and I might well upgrade, since the KJx will probably play slightly above their weight.

Having perpetrated the 1N, it is clear to pull to 3♣ and I echo all that Frances has posted.

I echo everything mikeh says in his first paragraph. Look at it this way - do you want to be playing 1NT with less than half the HCP and no obvious source of tricks? You will be, if partner is on a minimum opening hand.

How to deal with your earlier mild indiscretion just now is another matter. You can either pass or bid 3♣. 3♣ figures to go down most of the time, probably undoubled. Once in a while LHO will have a club stack and double you for -300 or -500. So, bidding 3♣ is not entirely safe.

On the other hand, partner thinks you can defeat 2♦ opposite the same hand you hold plus another queen or a useful diamond spot card. Chances are that he holds three diamonds, and the suit is distributed 3-1-3-6 around the table. Possible outcomes are: -380, -180,+100 and +300.

Imho, the best choice depends on the state of the match and your feel of the table. Other things being equal, I would Pass. Bidding 3♣ is something of an affront to partner. If he opened 1♣ on 4-3-3-3 distribution and 14 HCP, he will not enjoy going down three, -150, in 3♣ when 2♦ is not a make.