[jillybean]

Im surprised the 1nt bid has aroused such wrath! Back to the bottom of the class for me.

I didn't know what to do on this board. Partner knows I don’t have 4M and I know he has a maximum of 4♦’s (more like max3), this didn’t look like I should pass for penalty.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1NT
 Pass  Pass  2♦    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   Pass   ?
 

[P_Marlowe]

3C, but pass is ok.

They wont make overtricks.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

I need to better understand the pass here compared to the bidding going on in the other thread

http://forums.bridge...opic=21520&st=0

[mikeh]

jillybean2, on Oct 3 2007, 03:47 PM, said:

Im surprised the 1nt bid has aroused such wrath! Back to the bottom of the class for me.

I didn't know what to do on this board. Partner knows I don’t have 4M and I know he has a maximum of  4♦’s, this didn’t look like I should pass for penalty.

Dealer: West Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ T982 ♥ A43 ♦ AT ♣ AQ82 ♠ 764 ♥ QT9 ♦ K65 ♣ J973

West  North East  South

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1NT
 Pass  Pass  2♦    Pass
 Pass  Dbl   Pass    ?
 

'wrath' is an overbid, just like 1N.

Overbidding 1N is an extremely common error, but an error nonetheless.

[jtfanclub]

jdeegan, on Oct 3 2007, 02:59 PM, said:

Possible outcomes are: -380, -180,+100 and +300.

-280, -180, +100, and +300

If they're making 4♦, your partner has made a horrible mistake.

Looks like pass gets you +100 on the actual hand, and 3♣ might get you +110, might get you -50.

Quote

I need to better understand the pass here compared to the bidding going on in the other thread

It's a free bid- you can pass, and your partner will still get a chance to act. In fact, if you pass, it would be pretty rare for your partner to pass it out.

[jillybean]

'wrath' like my bidding is an overstatement, it was intended with humor.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Oct 3 2007, 03:57 PM, said:

I need to better understand the pass here compared to the bidding going on in the other thread 

http://forums.bridge...opic=21520&st=0

Hi,

first of all, it is a matter of style.

It may be non mainstream, it may be dangerous,
after all you are most likely facing a weak NT, i.e. a
bal. 12-14 count, but it is a matter of style.
And bidding 1 NT accomplish three things

1) you show the stopper
2) you kill the one level
3) you show some strength

If you believe or if you have the agreement, that 1NT
shows a stronger hand, than you have to pass.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[skjaeran]

jtfanclub, on Oct 3 2007, 08:51 PM, said:

Quantumcat, on Oct 3 2007, 01:24 PM, said:

If you bid 2♥, what if you end up in either a 4-2 heart fit or 3♣ with 9876 opposite J32? With a double you can penalty if pard has good diamonds and also find the 4-3 ♥ fit and also play in 3♣ if pard has okay clubs...

Not one person has suggested bidding 2♥ over the X. So you just missed the 4-3 heart fit.

Ehh. She responded to your post (she didn't quote though):

Quote

If I had a hand like:

AJxx
AKQx
x
9876

I'd bid 2♥, not X.

[jtfanclub]

skaeran, on Oct 3 2007, 04:28 PM, said:

jtfanclub, on Oct 3 2007, 08:51 PM, said:

Quantumcat, on Oct 3 2007, 01:24 PM, said:

If you bid 2♥, what if you end up in either a 4-2 heart fit or 3♣ with 9876 opposite J32? With a double you can penalty if pard has good diamonds and also find the 4-3 ♥ fit and also play in 3♣ if pard has okay clubs...

Not one person has suggested bidding 2♥ over the X. So you just missed the 4-3 heart fit.

Ehh. She responded to your post (she didn't quote though):

Quote

If I had a hand like:

AJxx
AKQx
x
9876

I'd bid 2♥, not X.

Slight change of the cards...

AK53
AKJ5
5
T864

across

764
QT9
K65
J973

the best place to play is probably 2♥. Unfortunately, on the original auction

1♣-1♦-1NT-P
-P--2♦--P-P
-X--P-

nobody had bid 2♥ (until Whereagles did it later). So if you want to play 2♥ in this situation, you need to bid it yourself, not X and wait for partner.

I would argue that there's two good meanings for X. One is the hand listed, where you want to play in a 4-3 in either major. The other is the actual hand Jilly gave, with good defensive strength and willing to play anywhere, including 2♦X.

What I can't figure out is a hand that passes 1NT, X's, and then wants you to bid clubs with a hand like the one in the original post.

[han]

1NT was wayyyy too much.

I'd pull to 3C now.

[Quantumcat]

Yeah I had responded to the post saying 2♥ with four of them. After the double, what's wrong with 2♥, one less trick than 3♣ (you said no one would bid it - why not?). Also if you bid 2♥, wouldn't that be more likely a hand with four hearts not four spades and five clubs, since you couldn't take out double? The person who bid 2♥ with 4-4 majors might get a 4-2 heart fit instead of a 4-3 spade fit.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Oct 3 2007, 07:30 PM, said:

I don't generally agree with the old-fashioned idea that a 'free bid' shows extras, but a free bid of 1N does. It should, in my view, deliver a good 7 - 10 hcp

Just to make this a bit clearer.

The fact RHO overcalled makes it more likely pard has a min, e.g. 12-13. If you bid 1NT on 6-7, you might end up playing it with 18-20 hcp and that rates to be a bit short. Thus you should have a bit more than those 6-7.

[jtfanclub]

Quote

Yeah I had responded to the post saying 2♥ with four of them. After the double, what's wrong with 2♥, one less trick than 3♣ (you said no one would bid it - why not?).

I don't know, but if you look at the thread, the discussion seems to be centered on 3♣ vs. pass. Only one person bid 2♥, and that was after my statement. I don't know what's wrong with it. You'd have to ask the 3♣ bidders.

Quote

Also if you bid 2♥, wouldn't that be more likely a hand with four hearts not four spades and five clubs, since you couldn't take out double?

Takeout double here only promises 1 major, at least the way I play it, since partner can bid one and I can bid 1NT to bid the other one.

Quote

The person who bid 2♥ with 4-4 majors might get a 4-2 heart fit instead of a 4-3 spade fit.

You won't play in the 4-2 fit: partner knows you don't have a 5 card major, so he'll put it somewhere else. Usually, only one major is good enough to play in a 4-3 fit. If both are...well, I can see that being a good use for the X. It's just not what I would expect.

[helene_t]

I think 2♥ is OK, catering for the possibility that p has a 3433 14-counts and dbl was meant as penalty. With 4333 he might correct to 2♠, and with a 5-card clubs he may correct to 3♣. Of course it would be better to know what p meant with the dbl.

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Oct 4 2007, 02:59 PM, said:

Quote

Yeah I had responded to the post saying 2♥ with four of them. After the double, what's wrong with 2♥, one less trick than 3♣ (you said no one would bid it - why not?).

I don't know, but if you look at the thread, the discussion seems to be centered on 3♣ vs. pass. Only one person bid 2♥, and that was after my statement. I don't know what's wrong with it. You'd have to ask the 3♣ bidders.

I suggested 2H way back on page one of the thread.

I said it was risky, because while this discussion explains that you cannot have a four card major (as I said at the time, if you have one then you have very good diamonds and would be passing the double); you need to trust that partner will be on the same wavelength. Bidding what should be a 9-card club fit is much safer.

[Codo]

2 ♥ had been a bid experts had understood but beginners had not, so 3 Club is quite clear.
For the bidding: I like the 1 Club opening.
I disliked the 1 NT bid (for the reasons given), but this call is at least close to what it should be.
But I hate the last X of 2 Diamond. You have no take out, no extra shape, no extra length no extra HCPS. Why do you double?
I would call this a kindergarten bully double: Bully says: I HAD the opening bid, so this is MY hand, i don´t let them play with my toys.

[jillybean]

This thread originated from my confusion over what to do after my partners double. I have the impression that bidding aggressively is the way to win, to the point where all doubles at all levels should be considered for take out. For me here the question was not bid or pass, it was what to bid. I did bid 2♥, thinking partner would correct to 3♣ if he couldn’t stand ♥.

However, my initial response of 1nt seems to be the culprit here. Had I not responded at the first level, problem#2 would not exist. So again, I’m thinking I must bid aggressively and show that I do have some values. Bidding 1nt over a minor seemed normal, had the auction been 1m (1M) I would have passed.

[jtfanclub]

Codo, on Oct 4 2007, 09:51 AM, said:

But I hate the last X of 2 Diamond. You have no take out, no extra shape, no extra length no extra HCPS. Why do you double?

Nice controls, though. 3.5 defensive tricks is a lot. The AT of diamonds may set up extra trump tricks for partner.

Responder has a subminimum for a 1NT call, and I'd still lay odds that 2♦ isn't going to make. Give partner a few jacks, say...

J6
QJ9
KJ54
J973

Now it looks like a more ordinary 1NT, and the question becomes can you nail them for 500?

[mikeh]

jillybean2, on Oct 4 2007, 10:22 AM, said:

This thread originated from my confusion over what to do after my partners double. I have the impression that bidding aggressively is the way to win, to the point where all doubles at all levels should be considered for take out. For me here the question was not bid or pass, it was what to bid.  I did bid 2♥, thinking partner would correct to 3♣ if he couldn’t stand ♥.

However, my initial response of 1nt seems to be the culprit here. Had I not responded at the first level, problem#2 would not exist.  So again, I’m thinking I must bid aggressively and show that I do have some values. Bidding 1nt over a minor seemed normal, had the auction been 1m (1M) I would have passed.

Generally speaking, bidding aggressively is better than the alternative, but it is essential to understand the meanings of certain sequences and to stay within them.

If a given bid shows, say, 11-12 and you make the bid with a mediorce 10 count, that is not 'bidding aggressively'. It is misbidding, because partner will make his (aggressive) decisions in the expectation that you have your values.

But say your 10 count had good positional values, and some useful spot cards. Now you can and should upgrade it to the equivalent of an 11 count, and make the bid. That is 'aggressive', but smartly so.

Or you could decide, as a partnership, that your weak two bids will frequently be on an indifferent 5 card suit with a weak hand, when at favourable. That is aggressive. But, if your partnership style.. your partnership methods... require sound weak twos, to bid 2♠ on QJxxx xx Kxxx xx is not 'aggressive', it is a misbid.

Most pairs, playing standard methods, require about 8-10 hcp for a free 1N. Some will drop it to 7. The hand you held wsa a 6 count and a bad 6 count in that you had no useful spot cards. K10x of diamonds, for example, is a far superior holding to Kxx. While by itself the 10 adds nothing, picture partner with Qx Jx etc and we see that the 10 is an entire trick!

[jdonn]

Very good post by Mike. Another example I always see is always bidding 3 instead of 2 on obvious weak two bids when not vul against vul. Aggressive doesn't mean overbidding every chance you get.