[inquiry]

Scoring: MP

---

Ok this hand provides some interesting disussion topics.

1) Is it worth a 2♣ opening bid?
2) Is it worth a 3♠ weak (bergen type) raise vul?
3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠
4) How to continue after 1♠-3♠ weak

Please provide how you would reach this slam using SAYC or 2/1 auction

[the hog]

I kibbitzed about 6 pairs bidding this in the Abalucy tournament yesterday.
One pair simply bid 1S 2S 6S which has to be wrong even though it works on this hand eg give responder Kxx Qxxx xxx Qxxx.

1) I don't think this is worth a 2C opening. You DO have a 4 loser hand, but 2 and 3 suiters are notoriously hard to show after a 2C opening.

2) and 3) I don't play Bergen, but having read up on these, I would say the hand qualifies. How to get to 6 confidently after a Bergen raise, I don't know.

I actually like this auction -
1S 2S
3D 4S
6S
Where 3D is a long suit trial and 4S shows D support AND a 4th S.
Where 3N would show a D card and only 3S. A new suit at the 3 level would be a counter trial, showing a max, 4 card support and a feature in the new suit. 4 of the long suit trial suit would show 4 card support in the trial suit. Is this too systemic, and is it worth while having this much system for something that does not arise all that often?

PS {Someone might suggest 1S 2S 4D to show something like this. I guess that might get you there too. This would not apply in my partnership, as the 4D bid would be an autosplinter}.

[pbleighton]

1) Is it worth a 2♣ opening bid?
No.

2) Is it worth a 3♠ weak (bergen type) raise vul?
Yes.

3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠
4S.

4) How to continue after 1♠-3♠ weak
4S.

Please provide how you would reach this slam using SAYC or 2/1 auction.
I wouldn't reach slam. I will be interested to see a credible 2/1 or SAYC auction which reaches slam.

Peter

[the hog]

Peter, are you saying my posted sequence is not credible?
Hey I resemble that remark!


3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠ 4S.

A 3D bid here by opener costs nothing and may gain you heaps.

[Free]

This is the reason why I've adopted special openings to show 55+ GF hands. Anyway:

1) Yes, imo it is worth a 2♣ opening, because you can play 4♠ ALL BY YOURSELF, and dont have to bid too high immediately.

2) Yes, ofcourse, it has 0-6 HCP with 4+♠. If I play Bergen raises, I don't care about the vulnerability. Perhaps you should even bid 3♣ to show 7-9 HCP (or if you play it 6-9), but the points are badly placed.

3) Pfff, hard to say, you have all controls, and dont need much help to make a slam. Why not bid 3♥, the best help you can get will be there imo. Bidding 5♠ makes some sence to, perhaps after control bidding or a trial...

4) 5♠: if you have 1 top honour, bid 6♠ partner, if you don't it might not be my lucky day.

How I'd bid:
2♣ - 2♦ (waiting bid
2♠ - 3♠ (some values and support)
4NT - 5♦ (1/4)
6♠
Trusting on well placed values of partner.

[inquiry]

1) Is it worth a 2♣ opening bid?

No. Strong two suiter are notoriously hard to bid if you open 2♣

2) Is it worth a 3♠ weak (bergen type) raise vul?

Yes. When vul I will not bid 3♠ with 4333 distribution, but 4432 is green light.

3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠

Don't jump to 4♣ (splinter). I am fond of 3♦. Ron's auction, 3♦-4♠ seems just about right, although I would ask for key cards rather than bid 6♠

4) How to continue after 1♠-3♠ weak

I like serious 3NT, and then a 4♥ last train (after all, I am farily good for 3♠.. .so I see

1♠-3♠
3NT-4♥
4NT-5♣
6♠.... although this is a little lucky.

[EricK]

inquiry, on Feb 9 2004, 12:13 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

---

Ok this hand provides some interesting disussion topics.

1) Is it worth a 2♣ opening bid?
2) Is it worth a 3♠ weak (bergen type) raise vul?
3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠
4) How to continue after 1♠-3♠ weak

Please provide how you would reach this slam using SAYC or 2/1 auction

1) While it is possibly strong enough for 2C, I suspect that opening 1S will work out better than 2C on more hands than where the reverse is true.

2) I don't think it is too weak in HCP for a Bergen 3S, but I wouldn't pre-empt with this hand because of its defensive nature.

3) 1S 2S see above/see above
3D 3S help suit GT/decline
4C 4D cue bid/cue bid
4N 5C RKB/1 key card
6S

The 4C cue bid changes the meaning of the 3D bid from Help suit GT to advanced cue bid. Responder, who has decline the "Game Try" can afford to cue-bid the DQ.

4) 1S 3S See above/Bergen
4D 5S Slam try/maximum, no cue bid
6S

I think that 4D should be a suit rather than just a cue bid. The DQ and SK are obviously useful cards in this auction, so responder (who could, after all, be xxxx Qxxx xx Kxx or worse) can afford a show of strength.

The key in both situations is responder to realise how important the DQ is.

Eric

[inquiry]

EricK, on Feb 9 2004, 01:49 PM, said:

3) 1S 2S see above/see above
3D 3S help suit GT/decline
4C 4D cue bid/cue bid
4N 5C RKB/1 key card
6S

The 4C cue bid changes the meaning of the 3D bid from Help suit GT to advanced cue bid. Responder, who has decline the "Game Try" can afford to cue-bid the DQ.

I like this auction after the 3♠ deny game accept.

Ben

[mikestar]

I think The Hog's sequence (1♠-2♠-3♦-4♠-6♠) is the only credible one leading to slam. If you start with 2♣ you are guessing where partner's values are.

The responder's hand has too much defense for Bergen 3♠. That ♦Qx is useless on offense unless partner has a ♦ suit, but might be a trick on defense.

If responder nevertheless does bid 3♠, opner should settle for 4. After all, reponder's minimum is xxxx xxx xxx xxx!

After 1♠-2♠, opener is worth a slam try under the Culbertson Rule: Invite slam if a perfect minimum will make it a laydown. ♠Kxxx ♦Qx is all opener needs--and he can find out below game. 3♦ asks the right question.

By the way, no point in asking for keycards. If resonder has ♠Kxxx and ♦Q he won't also have the ♣A: he is worth a limit raise.

[the hog]

EricK,

1S 2S
3D 3S help suit GT/decline
4C 4D cue bid/cue bid
4N 5C RKB/1 key card
6S

Why would responder decline the help suit game try when 1) He has a D card and 2) he has a 4th S? It would seem that your definition of a long suit trial is quite different to mine. (Perhaps a topic for another thread)?

Free,

Would your ask in H not get you to a slam with
Kxxx
Qxx
xxx
Jxx
Pretty poor slam! Even if resp has the H King this is still below 50%

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Feb 9 2004, 10:23 PM, said:

EricK,

1S 2S
3D 3S help suit GT/decline
4C 4D cue bid/cue bid
4N 5C RKB/1 key card
6S

Why would responder decline the help suit game try when 1) He has a D card and 2) he has a 4th S? It would seem that your definition of a long suit trial is quite different to mine. (Perhaps a topic for another thread)?

True he has a couple of pluses, but he does have 10 losers and this is MP, so there is no need to stretch.

However if responder does bid 4S, then opener will just bid slam there and then, so I don't get to cue-bid my DQ

Eric

[luke warm]

pbleighton, on Feb 9 2004, 03:58 AM, said:

1) Is it worth a 2♣ opening bid?
No.

2) Is it worth a 3♠ weak (bergen type) raise vul?
Yes.

3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠
4S.

4) How to continue after 1♠-3♠ weak
4S.

Please provide how you would reach this slam using SAYC or 2/1 auction.
I wouldn't reach slam. I will be interested to see a credible 2/1 or SAYC auction which reaches slam.

Peter

with past regular partners, playing 2/1 with bergen:

1♠ : 3♠
4♦ : 4♠
P

i don't think it's a great slam (even tho it probably makes this time), and i don't see not reaching it as a drawback to 2/1... oh, and i don't like opening 2♣ with a 2 suited hand.. if you use bergen it seems you have to bid 3♠ as responder

[Gerben47]

Quote

1) Is it worth a 2♣ opening bid?

2) Is it worth a 3♠ weak (bergen type) raise vul?

3) How to continue after 1♠-2♠

4) How to continue after 1♠-3♠ weak

1) NIAMY (Not In A Million Years)

2) Depends if you play 2/1 or not. If you play 2/1 no, if you play Std. yes.
I like to treat this as a bad raise to 2S (a direct 2S is a good raise to 2S).

3) 3D long suit trial

4) 4D long suit trial

Believable sequence:

1S - 1NT forcing
3D - 4D positive with spade fit (3S would be diamond fit, 4S negative)
6S

[Free]

1NT with a 4 card support??? NIAMY!!!

[the hog]

Free, if you play a forcing NT then 1N with 4 card support is not at all uncommon to show various hand types.

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Feb 10 2004, 04:27 PM, said:

Free, if you play a forcing NT then 1N with 4 card support is not at all uncommon to show various hand types.

This is a very true statement. However, maybe we should change this sad state of affairs.... :-)

What I play now maybe considered an abomination... but here you go....

1M-2M = 3 card support of 4333 distribution and bad hand.. like 0 to bad 8 hcp
1M-3M = 4 card support (not the 4333) and bad hand... like 0 to 7 hcp
1M-2NT = 4 card support 10ish+
1M-jumpshift = similar to 1M-3M but upper range, and value in bid suit too
1M-2C =1 round force, multi kind of bid... either,
1) True 2/1 game force
2) Any of several balanced hands some hcp ranges exculde 3 card support
3) Constructive 3/4 card raise or better (not better with 4 cards)....

This means that
1M-1NT does not include even as much 3 card support, EVER, nor any of teh game forcing hands... :-)

So far school is out on how well the 2♣ bid works in competition, since it has the same wide-ranging stuff as 1NT use to...but on the plus side, if you every bid anysuit other than partners major - even in comp, it is game force, and garrazzo 2/3 doubles are in place except on one specific auction (1M-2C-(2D)-2M)....

Note for me, on the hand is question, after 1♠-2♠ or 1♠-3♠ I actually have a great hand and will co=operate on any slam try by partner.. cause I promise as little as 0 hcp on both of these.

Ben

[the hog]

Far from thinking this is an abomination, I like the structure a lot, particularly the 1M 2C continuations. I also think the fit showing jumps are very useful, and would be prepared to give up the jump of 1M 4m as a splinter to show a fsj. (You could always inlude splinters into some art structure such as 1H - 3S , 1S 3N. A lot of European partnerships play something similar.

The main rationale of including support hands in a 1N forcing structure, was that this "slowed down the auction with a bad hand. eg 1S 1N 2S 2C often showed 4-5 HCP and 3-4 card support. If you play a pre empt jump to 1 - 3, then the 4 card support becomes redundant, and you may well want to play that going via 1N shows 3 card support only.

Ben would no doubt be the first to agree though, that when you start tinkering with parts of a unified system eg as Major suit raises here, this has an effect further down the track. In our case eg we play 1M 3m as a good 6 card suit invit. To change our M suit responding structure would mean that these hands would have to go via 1N. We play 1M 2m as categorically GF with 1 exception only - where resp supports opener's M at the lowest possible level after a 2/1. eg 1S 2D 2H 2S.

Ron

[luke warm]

i've been trying to learn ben's structure as i have time (which isn't often), but i think i'd like 2♣ better if it could be explained as either a drury type bid OR a game force in clubs.. i like the fact that it unloads 1nt (which i agree should never be made with as many as 3 card support)

[inquiry]

The_Hog, on Feb 10 2004, 05:58 PM, said:

Ben would no doubt be the first to agree though, that when you start tinkering with parts of a unified system eg as Major suit raises here, this has an effect further down the track. In our case eg we play 1M 3m as a good 6 card suit invit. To change our M suit responding structure would mean that these hands would have to go via 1N. We play 1M 2m as categorically GF with 1 exception only - where resp supports opener's M at the lowest possible level after a 2/1. eg 1S 2D 2H 2S.

Ron

Ron is of course, absolutely correct. One of the big advantages of 1M-2♣ (combined with 1M-2M) is its down stream effects. The biggest down stream effect is on 1M-3m and 1M-1NT auctions... I will start a new thread (link below) which explains the effect on my "forcing" 1NT auctions.

http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...t=ST&f=2&t=2183

Ben