[mikeh]

I agree with Justin that a quiet 2♦ makes no sense.

I am also absolutely sure that I am NOT passing 3N should he bid it over my 3♦ (nor would I bid it or look for it after a pusillanimous 2♦). We need him to have the ♦A, with sufficient length that he can hook the (probable) K onside or play for the drop or he needs the K and 2, count them, 2 stops. While I appreciate that 2♦ followed by 3♣ sends a message, I can't see how partner isn't going to bid 3N over that with Kxx in diamonds, a 10 count and one club stopper, for example. He'll know you need help, but he will think the so-far unbid Kxx in your long suit is that help.

This is not a hand that looks for notrump. Furthermore, I wouldn't worry about waiting to find a fit before upgrading: I'm looking at my fit already

We become so biased against minor suit contracts that I think we tend to strain for 3N too often. This hand is about diamonds... and maybe a lot of them. Ok... opposite xxx Jxxx Axx QJ10, maybe it's about 3N and I'm not getting there. I can handle it

[jdonn]

I just don't see 3♦. Sure it's a good hand but not as good as that, the long suit is not running, and partner is likely to be short in diamonds since he has both majors and where are all the clubs? 2♦ it has to be.

[pclayton]

jdonn, on Oct 3 2007, 12:53 PM, said:

I just don't see 3♦. Sure it's a good hand but not as good as that, the long suit is not running, and partner is likely to be short in diamonds since he has both majors and where are all the clubs? 2♦ it has to be.

Agree (well, I already did ).

Partner will frequently bid 3N on power without a diamond fit. Wouldn't you with something like: Kxxx, xxxx, x, AQxx? I'd much rather subside in a partial here. Pard will raise with a fit where we can make something higher.

[skjaeran]

Jlall, on Oct 3 2007, 06:46 PM, said:

skaeran, on Oct 3 2007, 11:43 AM, said:

I rebid 2♦.

If partner bid 2NT over this I'll try 3♣. If partner's got a double club stopper I rate his chances in 3NT as good, so I'll pass 3NT. If partner rebids 3♦ I'll pass, since I don't rate my chances in 5♦ good enough.

If you bid 2D and partner raises you won't go? You have a slam opposite Kxxx Axx Kxx xxx, why is partner supposed to bid more than 3D with this hand (I know you could have a balaned 11 count with 5 diamonds easily on this auction). This just seems crazy.

You're right Justin, passing 3♦ is indeed crazy. Any hand partner raises with should make 5♦ a reasonable contract. So I'd better bid 5♣, showing the void. Having limited the hand with 2♦ partner will raise to slam only with a hand like the one you suggest.

I still disagree with jumping to 3♦. That IMO overstates the strenght of the hand and I'd not be very comfortable with passing 3NT from partner, nor my chances if partner should raise to 5♦ (I'm more comfortable with 5♦ than 3NT though).

[mike777]

I can see if you open light then responder may have some problem hands around 8+ through 11 minus where responder is stuck for a rebid and must pass 2D.

Playing a 3d responder rebid as 8-13 is unplayable.

[cherdano]

jdonn, on Oct 3 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

I just don't see 3♦. Sure it's a good hand but not as good as that, the long suit is not running, and partner is likely to be short in diamonds since he has both majors and where are all the clubs? 2♦ it has to be.

Where in the world does a negative double promise both majors?

[awm]

I'd bid 2♦. I agree with Justin that this is an underbid. However, I would be very surprised if 2♦ ends the auction. Someone has clubs. I think even if partner has a hand that would pass my 2♦ rebid, one of my two opponents is going to bid more clubs. If by some bizarre sequence of events 2♦ ends the auction, partner probably has a lot of weakish clubs behind the club bidder and we may not have much of a fit.

The nice thing about bidding only 2♦ is that it gives us a lot of space. This means:

(1) We give opponents some rope to hang themselves in clubs if partner has a moderate stack.
(2) We give partner the chance to bid 2M with a 5cM, unlike over 3♦ where he may feel forced to decide immediately between 3M and 3NT (worried we have no club stop and will bypass 3NT without a fit for the 3M bid).
(3) We have the chance to bid 3♣ over partner's 2NT, allowing us to play 3NT when it's right and somewhere else otherwise. If we rebid 3♦ we will not know if 3NT by partner has multiple club stops or only one, and have to decide whether to bid or pass on less information.
(4) We give partner the opportunity to raise diamonds to three if holding a hand with one club stop and some other cards, which may lead us to 5♦ or even 6♦ opposite the right hand. Over 3♦ partner is presumably bidding 3NT with this hand most of the time.

I agree that if I rebid 2♦ and I get another call, I'm always taking another call. This will be either a takeout double of a 3♣ compete by opponents, or going to game after partner's rebid.

[jdonn]

cherdano, on Oct 3 2007, 04:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 3 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

I just don't see 3♦. Sure it's a good hand but not as good as that, the long suit is not running, and partner is likely to be short in diamonds since he has both majors and where are all the clubs? 2♦ it has to be.

Where in the world does a negative double promise both majors?

Probably in the same place where "likely" implies "promise".

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Oct 3 2007, 01:59 PM, said:

jdonn, on Oct 3 2007, 02:53 PM, said:

I just don't see 3♦. Sure it's a good hand but not as good as that, the long suit is not running, and partner is likely to be short in diamonds since he has both majors and where are all the clubs? 2♦ it has to be.

Where in the world does a negative double promise both majors?

It does in mine. The "2 places to play double" was discarded a long time ago.

[han]

What do you do with AKxx xx AQxx xxx Phil?

[pclayton]

I might make an exception for this one

[helene_t]

I would bid 3♦. This hand needs very little from p to make 5♦.

I expect p to bid 3NT. I'll probably try 4♣ then. If p then bids 4NT I'll respect his sign-off since I have shown my hand.

I feel reasonably good about this. Looks at if the auction is under control. Besides, even if it turns into a disaster, at least we will have learned something.

[han]

Hannie, on Oct 3 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

What do you do with AKxx xx AQxx xxx Phil?

pclayton, on Oct 3 2007, 06:25 PM, said:

I might make an exception for this one

What is exceptional about it? Seems like a common hand type to me.

[han]

Agree with Helenuh.

[jdonn]

Hannie, on Oct 3 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

What do you do with AKxx xx AQxx xxx Phil?

You can discount the possibility that partner has one major + diamond support since you have 7 diamonds, it seems quite unlikely.

[mikeh]

I think that those who bid 2♦ should be giving more thought than I can discern (which probably says more about my lack of insight than about the posters lack of thought ) to the issue of 3N. I see several suggesting that they will try for 3N of their partner bids 2N over 2♦.

I can understand using 3♣ over 2N as saying: one stopper isn't enough. I can understand it saying bid 3N if you have 2 stoppers or one stopper and a diamond card.

What I can't understand is it saying: you need two club stoppers AND a diamond card, or the AKx of diamonds and a club card.

But that is what you need to make 3N, when you need far less (by way of minor suit holdings) to make 5♦. And surely, if partner can only invite via 2N, and he has most of his length in the majors, the odds are that he cannot hold what we need to make 3N.

I wonder how many 2♦ bidders would join the 3♦ group if they decided that they couldn't play 3N? Note that Justin, Helene and I (as three of the 3♦ bidders) are very clear that we are NOT playing 3N.

[han]

I was replying to Phil's comment that he doesn't double with one 4-card major and diamond support in general, not to your comment that partner is very likely to hold both majors in this auction, which I agree with.

BTW, wouldn't we also double with many 4333 hands? For example AQxx KJx Kxx xxx?

[mike777]

If responder rebids 2nt over 2d I would rebid 3c and then 4c over 3nt. I have a max.
My big worry would be missing 5d when I rebid 2d and partner has some 8-11 pointers and passes if we open light.

[Fluffy]

jdonn, on Oct 3 2007, 11:37 PM, said:

Hannie, on Oct 3 2007, 06:07 PM, said:

What do you do with AKxx xx AQxx xxx Phil?

You can discount the possibility that partner has one major + diamond support since you have 7 diamonds, it seems quite unlikely.

partner made a take out double of a suit where you are void, something unlikelly is happening already