[jillybean]

Hi,

white vs. red Your partner who is a conservatitive bidder opens 2♠ , you hold

xx,Axx,AKJ,AJ10xx

Your bid? and why thanks.

[matmat]

if playing ogust, 2n and bid game over anything other than bad/bad
if playing feature, i probably just bid 4s as i am unlikely to find out useful information from p.

we have an 8 card fit, p likely to have decent suit texture for the preempt and i have cover cards in the side suits.

[han]

Agree with Mat.

[pclayton]

Agree with the young European guys.

[bid_em_up]

jillybean2, on Oct 1 2007, 10:07 AM, said:

Your bid? and why  thanks.

4♠. Because it makes.

Given that partner is a conservative bidder, their suit will not be J9xxxx, it will be more along the lines of KQ109xx or AQJxxx. Conservative bidders are also slightly less likely (imo) to have 3 cards in the other major (in this case, hearts), as they tend not to open preemptively when holding 3 cards in the other major.

So its likely you have 1 spade loser, 1 heart loser, and by taking a double finesse in clubs, no more than 1 club loser (and pitches for any other losers that partner may have).

I think the general rule I have seen is, after a weak two bid by partner, you should bid game when the total of your HCP + the number of your trumps >= 17. This is a fair approximation and even more so in this case where the hand is so rich in controls and contains a good 5 card suit that can possibly be established for pitches.

3N is also worth considering but would prefer some semblance of a second heart stop.

[Fluffy]

clsoe between 2NT adn 4♠, but 4♠ has a bonus that opponents might feel robbed at these colors, and they would regret.

[pclayton]

bid_em_up, on Oct 1 2007, 08:04 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Oct 1 2007, 10:07 AM, said:

Your bid? and why  thanks.

4♠. Because it makes.

Given that partner is a conservative bidder, their suit will not be J9xxxx, it will be more along the lines of KQ109xx or AQJxxx. Conservative bidders are also slightly less likely (imo) to have 3 cards in the other major (in this case, hearts), as they tend not to open preemptively when holding 3 cards in the other major.

So its likely you have 1 spade loser, 1 heart loser, and by taking a double finesse in clubs, no more than 1 club loser (and pitches for any other losers that partner may have).

I think the general rule I have seen is, after a weak two bid by partner, you should bid game when the total of your HCP + the number of your trumps >= 17. This is a fair approximation and even more so in this case where the hand is so rich in controls and contains a good 5 card suit that can possibly be established for pitches.

3N is also worth considering but would prefer some semblance of a second heart stop.

So why not give pard a little leeway with 2N?

[awm]

Rather than apply some mathematical rule based on adding points to trumps, I try to visualize how the play will go. With nothing else to go on, I tend to assume partner has a suit that will play for one loser opposite two small. Obviously this will not always be true, but it's more likely opposite a conservative preempter and partner could easily have a side card that makes up for a second loser in the trump suit.

Opposite something like ♠KQJxxx and out, I expect to take five spade tricks, one heart, two diamonds, and a club... with a lot of chances for trick ten (diamond finesse, or club double finesse, or try to ruff out clubs). So game is worth bidding opposite that hand. If playing no useful asking bids I would bid game immediately.

Playing ogust, it seems like you can afford to ask. If partner is the type to preempt on something like ♠KT9xxx and out this may keep you out of game.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Oct 1 2007, 10:05 AM, said:

4S, it seems no one on here has ever played with a conservative preemptor

Our conservative pard is NV.

By the way, you've characterized yourself as 'conservative' in the past, so I know how a conservative bidder acts.

Oo maybe I should pass.....

[whereagles]

4♠ because the cover cards I got seem to be enough to keep pard from losing too much in the side suits. If he has, say

KQxxxx
xx
xx
xxx

you got dozens of chances to make it, and this isn't even near the best weak 2 pard can have.

[bid_em_up]

pclayton, on Oct 1 2007, 12:56 PM, said:

So why not give pard a little leeway with 2N?

Because, I feel certain that if any useful information could be gained via 2N (ogust, feature, whatever), JB would have notated what they were playing in her original post. If bidding 2N can gain anything useful, then sure 2N is fine, but I dont read the post that way.

In the post as given, I am forced to assume there is no meaning agreed to a bid of 2N, which makes bidding it totally useless. You bid 2N, and partner bids 3x. What is it? Feature? Good hand, bad suit? Heck, is it even forcing to this partner? What? God forbid it goes 2N all pass. You still dont have any more "useful" information.

So I think your choices become 3N or 4S. Of the two, I'm simply bidding 4S.

[pclayton]

bid_em_up, on Oct 1 2007, 01:27 PM, said:

pclayton, on Oct 1 2007, 12:56 PM, said:

So why not give pard a little leeway with 2N?

Because, I feel certain that if any useful information could be gained via 2N (ogust, feature, whatever), JB would have notated what they were playing in her original post. If bidding 2N can gain anything useful, then sure 2N is fine, but I dont read the post that way.

In the post as given, I am forced to assume there is no meaning agreed to a bid of 2N, which makes bidding it totally useless. You bid 2N, and partner bids 3x. What is it? Feature? Good hand, bad suit? Heck, is it even forcing to this partner? What? God forbid it goes 2N all pass. You still dont have any more "useful" information.

So I think your choices become 3N or 4S. Of the two, I'm simply bidding 4S.

Deciphering pard's bids when there is no agreement can be frustrating but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

JB didn't say we didn't have an agreement on 2N. She merely said pard was conservative.

Even then, there's a fair chance we can figure out what pard is doing over 2N.

[jillybean]

We did not have any agreements over the preempt. I bid 3nt and went down, 4♠+1 was top.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     2♠
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

[EricK]

jillybean2, on Oct 2 2007, 03:49 AM, said:

We did not have any agreements over the preempt. I bid 3nt and went down, 4♠+1 was top.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     2♠
 Pass  3NT   Pass  Pass
 Pass  

To make game in ♠ or NT you will almost certainly need a few tricks from partner's ♠. Whereas they are bound to provide tricks in a ♠ contract, there is no guarantee that he has enough entries to provide the tricks in NT. Another point against 3NT is that you are unlikely to have 9 tricks on top, so that a ♥ lead looks quite dangerous for a 3NT contract. On the other hand, if you do have 9 tricks on top, then you will probably make the spade game anyway!

[Codo]

And another and simple reason: You have a 8 card trump fit and pd still can have a shapely hand. No need to rush to 3 NT.

[jillybean]

I agree, I had that sick feeling after I bid it.