[skjaeran]

Hannie, on Sep 29 2007, 07:59 PM, said:

It's not a jump Harald, but still no forcing pass.

Hehe, you're absolutely right Han.

[Winstonm]

Dear undisciplined :

I suppose you have never had the experience of writing down -200 when the opponents were cold for 4S but didn't bid on due to your pass. When it is unclear whose hand it is in a competetive auction, it is often right to bid on a hand that might otherwise pass: Q, xxx, Axxx, Axxxx might well bid 4S over 4H but pass over pass.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Do you ever win at bridge?

Not by trying to guess which times partner really has hid bid or not.

[Winstonm]

Quote

4♥ expresses values, namely some playing strength for hearts. It doesn't promise much of defense.

That's a fine agreement and I have no problem with that - but I guess you then have to pass or double or bid 3NT with K10x, Qxxx, AJxx, Kx?

Or is this the slow 4H?

[han]

No, you bid 4H with that as well. And when the opponents bid 4S you double.

[matmat]

Winstonm, on Sep 29 2007, 01:12 PM, said:

Not by trying to guess which times partner really has hid bid or not.

p always has their bid.

[Winstonm]

Quote

Sanity check - are there others that think we are in a forcing pass over 4♠? I don't.

This really is the crux - if 4H is a goodish hand, then the pass should be forcing. If the pass is not forcing, then 4H is a crapshoot bid.

The problem with making it either/or is that partner cannot know other than the looks of his own hand what is best - his hand may say bid while responder's may say defend and vice versa.

If pass is non-forcing, there is much more validity to bidding 4H.

[Winstonm]

Hannie, on Sep 29 2007, 01:17 PM, said:

No, you bid 4H with that as well. And when the opponents bid 4S you double.

Can I also double my partner's 5H bid? I don't like his chances much.

Here is my basic problem with this whole style/approach. One hand says, hey, my hand looks like it should bid on - partner's hand says, hey, my hand says we should defend. So we end up guessing whether to bid or defend. Each player is judging by only h-i-s hand.

The object of bridge should be to find out what is best for the c-o-m-b-i-n-e-d assets of both hands.

Discipline is doing what systemically is called for even when you strongly suspect it is the wrong action - it is the basis of partnership trust.

[han]

Good to have you back Winston.

[Winstonm]

Hannie, on Sep 29 2007, 01:33 PM, said:

Good to have you back Winston.

Thanks, Han.

You just needed a foil for your silly concepts, right? LOL.

[cherdano]

Winstonm, on Sep 29 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

Hannie, on Sep 29 2007, 01:17 PM, said:

No, you bid 4H with that as well. And when the opponents bid 4S you double.

Can I also double my partner's 5H bid? I don't like his chances much.

I would love it if you doubled, because I would redouble, saving me the decision whether to bid 6.

Come on, give me xxx Qxxx AJxx Kx on this auction (1H (3S) 4H (4S) 5H) and I would certainly hope to make. In your given hand, even the ♠K opposite partner's void may be useful when they lead ♠A. What do you expect partner to have?

[han]

Winstonm, on Sep 29 2007, 01:35 PM, said:

Hannie, on Sep 29 2007, 01:33 PM, said:

Good to have you back Winston.

Thanks, Han.

You just needed a foil for your silly concepts, right? LOL.

hehe.

[Winstonm]

cherdano, on Sep 29 2007, 01:36 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Sep 29 2007, 12:26 PM, said:

Hannie, on Sep 29 2007, 01:17 PM, said:

No, you bid 4H with that as well. And when the opponents bid 4S you double.

Can I also double my partner's 5H bid? I don't like his chances much.

I would love it if you doubled, because I would redouble, saving me the decision whether to bid 6.

Come on, give me xxx Qxxx AJxx Kx on this auction (1H (3S) 4H (4S) 5H) and I would certainly hope to make. In your given hand, even the ♠K opposite partner's void may be useful when they lead ♠A. What do you expect partner to have?

IMO, it is not about what I expect partner to have but about what partner expects me to have.

This is a matter of style, and I do not quibble with either. If you believe the 4H bid should be approximately the same as a solid limit raise, i.e., an expectation of making 4H a reasonable amount of the time, then partner should be able to double 4S without extras.

If you believe that 4H should be bid on playing strength, that, too, is O.K., and partner will have to have extras to double.

But to combine these two into the same bid turns what could be an informed decision into a guessing game based on one's own hand and not the combined efforts of both hands.

Just so you know, I'm not much into captaincy, either.

One the the big sins of the Aces was: unilateral decisions. I believe that still to be the case and a killer of partnership and team moral.

[han]

I'm all for discipline but this has nothing to do with it. With this hand you expect to make 4H most of the time. In fact 5H often has a decent chance. And if partner drives to slam you expect to make that as well.

Without the 3S bid you would never play below game, it doesn't make sense not to bid game now. If your partnerships don't allow you to bid with this hand because it doesn't have enough defense then you are missing the boat too often. 4H can be bid on a wide variety of hands. If there is further bidding then you can clarify. By pulling partner's double of 4S you show that you have a light and highly distributional raise. If you have the balanced GF that you gave earlier then you would be the one doubling 4S and partner would know that you don't have a hand like this one.

It is certainly possible that you get a bad score by bidding 4H, although your constructions haven't been very convincing. It isn't good advice to only consider somewhat farfetched worst-case scenarios. To get a fair assessment you should consider all possible scenarios, and those include being allowed to make 4H or 5H when their spade contract was making, playing in a good slam, finding a good sac over their spade game, etc.

While I can't compute all possible layouts I'd say that bidding is so clearly right that I didn't think anybody would suggest passing.

[jdonn]

First the 2-2 break thing, then this. The Foo memorial all-star club is growing...

[whereagles]

4♥ for now, 5♦ over 4♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

show the support.

If you play that 4D shows diamonds and
the support it is obviously best, but you need
to play it, else simply bid 4H.

with kind regards
Marlowe

[Winstonm]

Quote

To get a fair assessment you should consider all possible scenarios, and those include being allowed to make 4H or 5H when their spade contract was making, playing in a good slam, finding a good sac over their spade game, etc.

I agree with this. Here is the opposing viewpoint. Under the suggestions for this hand, partner is barred from action over lurker's 4S bid unless he holds some extraordinary hand.

Yet everyone also says they would never sit for a double and would always bid again over 4S - and with this I agree. If I bid 4H, I would never sit either and I would bid 5D over 4S.

But here is the deal - as I have shown, the times we can make a subminimal 4H the opponents can also make 4S.

Here are some observations:
Bidding 4H does not allow the hand to be played in 3S when both 4H and 4S are making.
Bidding 4H is clearly superior when: a) it buys the contract and makes or b) it buys the contract as a good sacrifice or c) when 4H makes and 3S is the limit of the opposing hands and the opponents sell out to 4H.

If we contrast pass we get this:
It allows the contract to be played in 3S if 4S is making.
It is possible that we allow a making 3S when we can make 4H
It does not bar partner from acting or any subsequent action we may elect to take over 4S - (so if we were going to bid 4H and then bid again over 4S, we can do very nearly the same thing by passing first and bidding over 4S, only we can't then bid both suits like that is a big deal.)

So the decision to bid 4H or pass really gets down to this: how often will we get to profitably buy the contract at precisely 4H verses how often will this action prod the opponents into a making 4S.

All other arguments are essentially a mirage.

[jtfanclub]

Winstonm, on Sep 29 2007, 12:49 PM, said:

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Partner is still there, allowed to bid 5♥.

A little question, here. If the auction continues: 1H-3S-4H-4S-X, do you pull the double or sit?
.
.
.
Of course, this presupposes that a 4H bid expresses some values - if the 4H bid does not express values, you can do whatever you wish.

Suppose you were opener. The auction goes:

1♥ (3♠) X (P)
4♣ (-P-) 4♥ (P)

What do you think is going on here?

In your example, heck yes I pass. We look to only have a 9 card fit. I don't think the opponents are even 50% to have a 9 card fit. If they don't have a majority of the points (and I don't think they do), we can probably crush them.