[neilkaz]

jillybean2, on Sep 27 2007, 01:56 PM, said:

I was north here and thought 4♦ was 110% forcing. I didnt go looking for a ♥ stop since pard bypassed 2nt and we had a fit in both minors.
Maybe I should have been happy with game, oh well.

These minor suit auctions can be touchy, indeed. As one who isn't convinced that 4♦ is 100% forcing, here's a way I think you can force with a good hand interested in slam (this one is not good enough).

To force in ♦ or ♣ here, why not ask for a stopper with 3♥ and then pull 3NT to 4 of a minor or continue on over 4m if no stop in PD's hand ? That would certainly force to game and show an SI hand.

As it stands, however, S has an absolute max, IMHO for his bidding so far and really is a wimp for leaving it in 4♦.

You could just have jumped from 3 to 5♦ but you are in trouble if PD has a min. and I think it dangerous to assume a pickup has no ♥ stopper for his 3♦.

.. neilkaz ..

[jtfanclub]

Walddk, on Sep 27 2007, 12:07 PM, said:

I think you did very well until South sounded weak/weak (3♦). Given the auction after partner's 2♠, South has excellent cards, a very healthy minimum. In my view 3♥ should get that message across.

Now, I know I'm sort of weird, but with partner bidding a mere 2♦, and then bidding a "I'm sorry I opened" 3♦, I'd just give up as North. There's only so much poking with a stick I can do before I get convinced that partner is really and truly dead.

I think 4♦ showed considerable courage by North, if it's nonforcing. There is no way that I'd bid 5♦.

[kenberg]

A question: How should the bidding go with the given hands, and how should the bidding go with the king of spades changed to the queen of spades? A virtual certain 11 tricks in one case, a virtual certain 10 (exactly 10) in the other. No matter how the hearts lie, the opponents, after hearing of no heart stop, should cash the hearts and wait for the spade.


Now when it's that close, I wouldn't be too hard on a casual partnership that fails to reach game. But I agree with I guess about everyone that it's South's job to get them to game. To be a little simplistic, he is the one who is looking at the king and not the queen.

[goodwintr]

The arguments that South is good enough to accept even if 4D is merely invitational, not forcing (primes, maximum for previous bidding, every indication that the honors are a superfit), are the same arguments that should have persuaded South to bid 4D, not just 3D, over 2S. The proposed 3H bid (over 2S) is a lot more fashionable than jump-raising partner, but not necessarily more effective.

[P_Marlowe]

4D was forcing, hence pass was not an
option.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[FrancesHinden]

jtfanclub, on Sep 27 2007, 06:03 PM, said:

hrothgar, on Sep 27 2007, 11:50 AM, said:

Quick question for the peanut gallery about North's 2♠ call...  What would a double show in this same sequence?

I suppose I'd be laughed out of the room if I proposed hearts well stopped, penalty oriented?

Not by me.

[matmat]

i have a hijack question here --
what sort of hand would you expect the 2♥ overcaller to have considering they passed over the 1♣ opening?

[kenberg]

matmat, on Sep 28 2007, 04:29 AM, said:

i have a hijack question here --
what sort of hand would you expect the 2♥ overcaller to have considering they passed over the 1♣ opening?

In this case the 2H is in response to his partner's double. So beyond having four hearts and modest values, I wouldn't expect much. I'm guessing (always presumptive) you missed seeing the double. If he were acting completely on his own I guess I would figure him for a suit something like KQJTx and not a great deal else. Too little strength to overcall (by some standards at least), too short for a WJO (again by some standards) but still, given the vul, reasonably safe since he can, with a little luck, play it for four tricks opposite zip or five tricks opposite an ace.

Getting back to the forcing/non-forcing 4D: I realize that in some circumstances raising a minor from 3 to 4 is forcing. Justin and others (South, for example) regard it as non-forcing here, Phil and others (North, for example) regard it as forcing. Can anyone suggest guidelines?

[matmat]

kenberg, on Sep 28 2007, 08:18 AM, said:

you missed seeing the double.

why yes... yes I did...

though I have seen auctions like that, without the double, perpetrated before...

[ArtK78]

For those of you who believe that 4♦ is forcing, please let me know at what point in the auction was a game force created?

I would agree that 4♦ would be forcing if a game force was created at some point in the auction before the 4♦ bid. However, if the auction was not game forcing before the 4♦ bid, then 4♦ should be invitational.

South has done absolutely nothing except open the bidding and support partner's diamonds. North made a 2♠ call over 2♦ which could only be construed as a game try (if he intends to bid game, that will become clear later in the auction). South rejected, and North tried once more with 4♦. North had many other choices available to him to try for game which could not be passed - 3♥, 3♠, 4♣. Then, if South returned to 4♦ North could carry on to game or stop in 4♦.

I see no reason why North should not be able to make a pure invitational to game 4♦ bid on this auction. And I see no advantage for having 4♦ as forcing to game. If North wants to make sure that game is reached, North has many bids available to him.

There is a school of thought that there are bids which are forcing to the 4 level, treating the 4 level as the equivalent of game. So, if you subscribe to that school of thought, if the prior auction was forcing to the four level the 4♦ bid would not be forcing, as the 4 level has been reached.

[P_Marlowe]

ArtK78, on Sep 28 2007, 09:36 AM, said:

For those of you who believe that 4♦ is forcing, please let me know at what point in the auction was a game force created?

Live is to short to play, that one is able
to stop in 4D.

3D already said, that South is dead, and
Norths bids on, playing 4D as inv. is asking
the same question over and over again.

Friedrich II of Prussia said about Saxonia:
"Saxonia is like a flour sack, even if the sack is empty,
if you hit it, there will still be some flour left, which comes
out."

Playing 4D as inv. display a similar attitude.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jdeegan]

Imo, the one really bad bid in this auction was South's final pass. My goodness, forcing (I don't see how) or not, your 2♦ bid could hardly be better, and partner has invited game.