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Paul Marston is wrong

#21 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 18:50

Free, on Sep 18 2007, 04:39 PM, said:

Rob F, on Sep 18 2007, 03:14 PM, said:

You can compromise and get both a strong club and most light (8+) openers with a semi-forcing pass system.  You heard it here first :P.

P  most 0-7 or 12-14 unbal

2-way pass systems are even worse... It's not an original idea in the first place, and it doesn't work as well as you think.

The effectiveness of two-way bids depends on the precise definition.

I maintain that a 1 opening showing 11-13 bal or any 17+ does very well, because -

* Partner can assume you have 11-13 bal (the dominant handtype) unless you tell him otherwise, which you'll usually be fine to do
* He never wants to bid opposite 11-13 bal but not opposite 17+
* If partner bids on the assumption you have 11-13 bal, it is still useful information opposite the strong type
* If partner wants to bid opposite 11-13 bal, you are happy to be in a GF auction opposite the strong type
* The dominant hand-type never wants to take another call in competition unless raising partner

The following definitions for opening bids fall down on at least some of these points -

* 1 as 11+ with clubs or 15-19 bal
* Pass as any 0-7 or any 16+
* Pass as any 0-7 or 12-14 bal (the stronger hand will often feel unable to take a call in a competitive auction, so pard will go on assuming you have 0-7)

Pass as 0-7 or 12-14 unbal does fairly well on these points. Often, the unbalanced nature of the strong type will enable you to bid at your second turn.
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#22 User is offline   Impact 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 19:17

Having almost 30 years experience of ferts:-

a) vulnerable ferts are a big mistake even at imps while at mps -200 is a frequent disaster. Corollary : for more than a decade I have resisted playing any system which required a vulnerable fert. Pass when vulnerable is a great option!

:P when you own the partscore, opening a fert is likely to be antipercentage and unsurprisingly makes finding the right partscore that much more difficult (pre-emption works against you here fairly obviously). These are the hands you are most likely to lose out on particularly a secondary (eg 44) fit or fit based on primary length in fert's hand;

c) when you have a real dog and can up the ante with a 1S or 2C fert at favourable, your opponents labour to bid slams (much less grands) : the pre-emption works in your favour;

d) against good opponents the fert can give them information in the play of the hand;

e) like any other pre-empt a fert may stop them bidding some games and push them into others (which may make) thereby causing a randomisation or swinging effect;

f) the only "2-way forcing pass" I like is at radical extremes of the range and is pretty much prohibited by ACBL: ie Pass is either 0-4 or 16+ so that there is an injection of additional risk in the defenders' destructive actions (their "weak jump overcall" on a tactical basis on 15HCP now looks stupid when it is their hand, or moving on some 44 generates too high an auction etc). Note if HUMs are permitted the 2-way structure is permitted but in most jurisdictions it is increasingly rare;

g) other 2-way forcing or non-forcing pass systems are "hole-fillers" for your constructive system but place your side at a radical disadvantage when those hands occur in both theory and practice;

h) Richard & Ron are correct as to statistical frequency of occurrence of the 8-12 HCP range on any given deal, but of course the corollary as to whether frequency of occurrence ALONE is sufficient justification for allocation of bids is a separate matter. Funnily enough it makes sense at pairs where frequency is king (but now you as superior players will be disadvantaged by rarely playing in the same contract as others) but size of result matters more at imps (clearly) and my experience is that it is less clear here (in fact doubtful). This does not mean that methods in 3rd & 4th seat should be exactly the same as 1st and second - au contraire as who would wish to fert in 4th seat to give the most obvious example!

i) The experience is based on records of every auction that Bob & I have played in ANY competition and bidding competitions and practice hands over 20+ years as he maintains such scrupulously!!! It is still anecdotal but I suggest there are few if any southern hemisphere players with an equivalent database.
Against better players not trying to get clever the fert at teams is an overall loser, but a frequent winner against their slams (sort of like a mini -2NT slam killer...).

j) ferts appeal to juniors to get a chance to bid on really bad hands and jam the opponents but like big club/strong pass, it is the remainder of the hands (midrange) which derive benefit.;

k) If you are going to fert, to do so "safely" via 1C/D is losing bridge as it gives the opponents a fielder's choice to bid to their par contract with improved information or to attempt penalties with no pre-emptive risk: it is VERY easy to design systems which take advantage of 1m fert to clarify your own constructive bidding;

l) subject to the usual adjustments my view is to go fairly mainstream to allow maximum exposure with bids: 10-15HCP approximately which requires less fiddling with your judgement in responding -developed over many years as well, while allowing play in most events;

m) I find it bizarre that so many organisations have placed a regulatory ban on 2-way methods and/or psyching the strongest possible bid both in terms of taking the tactical nous out of the game and placing too great an advantage in the hands of the defensive side.

Finally, I find it remarkable that organisations have gone out of their way to ban intelligent system design: eg encryption, limiting the "number of systems" a partnership may play when it is clear that at unfavourable say a system based on ROMEX big bid rinciples has advantages, all vul a big club is reasonable, n/v a strong pass is playable and at favourable a strong pass and fert actually sensible!! Particularly in the latter instances fairly obviously the 3rd and 4th seat bids are different from those in 1st and 2nd which also fall foul of the regulatory requirements!

Of course, being that rara avis, a system maven and designer, I see the benefits but that does not necessarily make it practical even were it allowed as very few partners are able to cope with 1 system both on memory and derivation/application of principle in the heat of battle, much less many!

IMHO that is not an excuse for regulatory bodies to deny the opportunity!

regards
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#23 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 20:39

Hannie, on Sep 18 2007, 11:32 PM, said:

I don't want to argue about light openers, I don't know enough about the subject.

I think I know something about the word "because" though, and I know that "the optimal range for opening bids is 8-12" does not follow directly from the fact that "most hands fall into that ambit".

Richard, you are supposed to be the purist here! I'm surprised you can stand such arguments.

Yes it does. I am surprised that you don't understand the comment as your English seems to be a lot better than your partner's. Perhaps his recent bad manners and arrogance are rubbing off on you.

"The optimum range for opening bids is 8-12 because most hands fall into that ambit."

I will make it easier for you. Most hands fall into the 8-12 range. Therefore that is the optimum range for opening bids. The reason of course, is that you are opening more often. Now if you wish to continue being an a******e, (Engllish spelling), you can.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#24 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:00

The_Hog, on Sep 18 2007, 09:39 PM, said:

I will make it easier for you. Most hands fall into the 8-12 range. Therefore that is the optimum range for opening bids. The reason of course, is that you are opening more often. Now if you wish to continue being an a******e, (Engllish spelling), you can.

so opening more often is better for my scores?
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#25 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:01

I should have known that English wasn't your problem Hoggy.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#26 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:05

matmat, on Sep 19 2007, 10:00 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 18 2007, 09:39 PM, said:

I will make it easier for you. Most hands fall into the 8-12 range. Therefore that is the optimum range for opening bids. The reason of course, is that you are opening more often. Now if you wish to continue being an a******e, (Engllish spelling), you can.

so opening more often is better for my scores?

Absolutely!
If you open 8-12 ranges you can get in and out of the auction very quickly. How do you think the opponents feel about this auction:
1D (P) 2S ?
Where 1D = 8-12 and 4+S and 2S = a non forcing S raise.

The limited opening bids are HUGE winners in such a system. The strong pass is a losing bid just like the Precision 1C opening bid. We also gained on the fert.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#27 User is offline   matmat 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:10

The_Hog, on Sep 18 2007, 10:05 PM, said:

If you open 8-12 ranges you can get in and out of the auction very quickly. How do you think the opponents feel about this auction:
1D (P) 2S ?
Where 1D = 8-12 and 4+S and 2S = a non forcing S raise.

The limited opening bids are HUGE winners in such a system. The strong pass is a losing bid just like the Precision 1C opening bid. We also gained on the fert.

now, does this also work against good players who know what they are doing, or just against the LOLs?
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#28 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:33

matmat, on Sep 19 2007, 10:10 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 18 2007, 10:05 PM, said:

If you open 8-12 ranges you can get in and out of the auction very quickly. How do you think the opponents feel about this auction:
1D (P) 2S ?
Where 1D = 8-12 and 4+S and 2S = a non forcing S raise.

The limited opening bids are HUGE winners in such a system. The strong pass is a losing bid just like the Precision 1C opening bid. We also gained on the fert.

now, does this also work against good players who know what they are doing, or just against the LOLs?

In fact those organisations that allow you to play such methods eg the Aust Bridge Fed., only let you play Strong Pass systems if you are in the top 25% of the field in 14+ board matches. Yes, it does work against strong players. To answer your next question, the reason people don't play these methods is the lack of opportunity.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#29 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:36

Even good players have problems if they are forced to start their auctions at higher levels. Also note Josh's earlier comment regarding penalising the fert. From experience, I would argue that this is a sub optimal method. Bidding over a fert should be constructive imo, but somehow the fact that you can open 1H 0-7 is a red rag to a bull to many players.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#30 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 21:58

joshs's name is Josh, not Justin.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#31 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 04:55

He has also turned into a ventriloquist.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
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#32 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 12:15

MickyB, on Sep 19 2007, 02:50 AM, said:

The effectiveness of two-way bids depends on the precise definition.

I maintain that a 1 opening showing 11-13 bal or any 17+ does very well, because -

* Partner can assume you have 11-13 bal (the dominant handtype) unless you tell him otherwise, which you'll usually be fine to do
* He never wants to bid opposite 11-13 bal but not opposite 17+
* If partner bids on the assumption you have 11-13 bal, it is still useful information opposite the strong type
* If partner wants to bid opposite 11-13 bal, you are happy to be in a GF auction opposite the strong type
* The dominant hand-type never wants to take another call in competition unless raising partner

That 1 opening really sucks. Provided opps have an intelligent defence. (And it's ridiculously easy to defend against.) I used to play a lot against Carrot Club some ten years ago. When a competitive sequence occured where there was a fight for the part score we won 5-7 IMPs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME

The main reason why it sucks is that the 1 opener in competiton has to double on all 17+ hands (where he can't make a natural bid in a suit) even if the hand doesn't have a t/o distribution whereas a big club opener can pass those hands, knowing that partner will act.

What happened was that opponents didn't compete when they had the highers contract. Or that they competed and went down when we'd have gone down. And this had nothing to do with bad judgement or play, our opponents was a very strong pair, placing 10th in the 1991 European Pairs Championship.
Kind regards,
Harald
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#33 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 12:58

skaeran, on Sep 19 2007, 07:15 PM, said:

MickyB, on Sep 19 2007, 02:50 AM, said:

The effectiveness of two-way bids depends on the precise definition.

I maintain that a 1 opening showing 11-13 bal or any 17+ does very well, because -

* Partner can assume you have 11-13 bal (the dominant handtype) unless you tell him otherwise, which you'll usually be fine to do
* He never wants to bid opposite 11-13 bal but not opposite 17+
* If partner bids on the assumption you have 11-13 bal, it is still useful information opposite the strong type
* If partner wants to bid opposite 11-13 bal, you are happy to be in a GF auction opposite the strong type
* The dominant hand-type never wants to take another call in competition unless raising partner

That 1 opening really sucks. Provided opps have an intelligent defence. (And it's ridiculously easy to defend against.) I used to play a lot against Carrot Club some ten years ago. When a competitive sequence occured where there was a fight for the part score we won 5-7 IMPs. ALMOST EVERY SINGLE TIME

And the best defence is?
The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
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#34 User is offline   keylime 

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  Posted 2007-September-19, 13:28

I hate to say it but, I don't think the lead Irish pair (Hugh McGann and Tom Hanlon if memory serves) and one of the better pairings in the world would agree with the level of "suck" with their 2 way club meaning.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#35 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 14:20

Contrary to what the_hog seems to think, I'm pretty sure the jury's still out on the light opening methods. There are many issues, for example:

(1) While 8-12 is certainly a more common range to hold than 13-16, there are also certainly more total 13-16 hands than hands with 8-12 and a particular distribution. This means that a minimum-range forcing pass is going to be much more frequent than any particular 8-12 opening bid. This is probably not optimum use of space: it would seem to make sense to have more than one opening call on the 13-16 range while still having several opening bids that potentially show the 8-12 range.

(2) Certainly you will win some partscore swings on auctions like the one given (1(spades) - P - 2) as it becomes hard for opponents to judge correctly whether to compete. But you will also lose some partscore swings when the field is bidding 1-P-2 and you are opening with a forcing pass, allowing opponents to get their suit bids in before yours. Obviously the first type of hand is more common (8-12 more frequent than 13-16 range) but there will be compensating losses.

(3) Especially at IMP scoring, game/slam bidding is often key. Yes, partscore swings do matter, but our own side's game/slam bidding will often be more difficult when we open virtually all hands where slam is at all probable (13+ hcp hands) with a single nebulous bid. The light initial action methods seem to be saying "we'll sacrifice accuracy in our own constructive bidding in order to get in your face early and disrupt your constructive bidding." It's not clear that this is even a net win.

(4) One thing that's hard to do, even with the best relay system in the world, is to locate opponents cards in the auction. Say I want to be in 3NT only when spades are 4-3, or I want to bid a slam only if a certain finesse is on. Nobody's developed the "opponent suit asking bid" yet to reveal the enemy holdings (okay maybe Xango club has it, and that pair suspended for cheating recently seems to have the methods). But by opening hands no one else will open when the eventual contract belongs to opponents, light opening methods can actually solve this problem for the opposition!

In any case, I suspect that light initial action/forcing pass methods will tend to win on the 8-12 hands and lose on the 13+ hands. While there are more of the former than the latter, the magnitude of the wins and losses (even at MP) has to be taken into account as well, and it's not clear that the system is really going to be a net win. It also seems that opening super-light balanced hands has more or less fallen out of fashion, and that this makes sense on many levels since balanced hands are often more suited to defending.

It's unfortunate that convention committees have tended to disallow these methods (making it hard to tell whether they're actually superior or not) but I can see the viewpoint that fert bids (in particular) are hard to defend using any standardized defense and also tend to randomize results. It's also difficult to judge how good "the system" actually is when you obtain a lot of wins from opponents who don't really have good defenses (this makes a lot of "weird" conventions look better than they actually are when analyzed from a bridgebrowser type approach; even relatively common non-standard methods like the multi 2 appear to be substantial wins on bridgebrowser while most expert players consider multi itself a small loss when compared to natural weak two bids, with compensating wins for the alternate uses of 2M openings).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#36 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 14:47

cardsharp, on Sep 19 2007, 08:58 PM, said:

And the best defence is?

The best - no idea?
What we used was:
pass=8-14 balanced
X=15+ balanced
1=0-7
1M=natural 8-14
1NT=15+unbalanced
I don't remeber if 2-level bids was natural or 2-way, they showed 8-14 hands.
Vulnerable we switched the meanings of pass and 1.

The basic idea is to tell at once strenght and hand type, so that partner will know if we should bid obstructively, compete for partscore, invite or force to game etc, while openers hand type is still unknown for responder.
Kind regards,
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#37 User is offline   joshs 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 15:19

The_Hog, on Sep 18 2007, 10:36 PM, said:

Even good players have problems if they are forced to start their auctions at higher levels. Also note Josh's earlier comment regarding penalising the fert. From experience, I would argue that this is a sub optimal method. Bidding over a fert should be constructive imo, but somehow the fact that you can open 1H 0-7 is a red rag to a bull to many players.

Bidding over the FERT of course needs to be constructive. What does that have to do with penalizing them or not? The main question is:
Can you make up for the loss in bidding space in some other way?
If you think about it, its actually theorectically impossible to make up for the loss of a 1C,1D and 1H bid with only 1 call x. So you will do worse then average in constructive bidding here.

So how do you make up for the loss of space?
There are only 2 ways.
1. Taking more tricks when you play the hand
2. Gain when the Fert bidding side declares the hand, especially if you can x them effectively, or when they play in a silly strain when your side has no game.

In particular, if you can force them out of 1H and reveal what they have while providing valuable information to partner about your hand, even if they escape from an eventualy penalty x, you will play the hand close to double dummy (see advantage 1).

So from my forcing pass experience (and analysis) x of the FERT should be ART, and equavalent to a penalty x of a weak NT (typically any shape 15+, but 15's with very short hearts should do something else, and 14's with primary hearts should x tactfully just to make them reveal their hands) and should establish a forcing pass.
I play the 1N overcall as a sound takeout x of hearts, and otherwise things are pretty natural.

After, 1H-P-P
or 1H-P-A Non-Forcing bid
x's are takeout and NT is natural.

Occasionally you end up defending 1H-x when both sides are guessing, but mostly the x gives significant compensation to your side....
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#38 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 16:37

I agree with awm's long post.

A shorter way to say it is that there are many many factors that influence what the best system is.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

- hrothgar
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#39 User is offline   keylime 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 17:58

I as well agree with Adam. I personally am not sold at all with light openers in a 2/1 style system versus a limited bid system. However it's strictly an opinion and not empirical in scope.
"Champions aren't made in gyms, champions are made from something they have deep inside them - a desire, a dream, a vision. They have to have last-minute stamina, they have to be a little faster, they have to have the skill and the will. But the will must be stronger than the skill. " - M. Ali
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#40 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 18:42

The_Hog, on Sep 18 2007, 10:39 PM, said:

Most hands fall into the 8-12 range. Therefore that is the optimum range for opening bids.

But is it the optimum to open these at the one level?

Say one played a modifed EHAA:

1: 15+ balanced or 12+ s
1: 12+ s
1: 4s quasi-balanced 9-11 or 12+ 5+s
1: 4s quasi-balanced 9-11 or 12+ 5+s
1NT: 12-14 balanced
2X: 5+ suit, 8-11

Isn't it quite possible that the 2X openings would be more successful than the 8-12 1X versions?
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
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