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IBPA article

#61 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 19:08

TimG, on Sep 18 2007, 04:46 PM, said:

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating. This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it? The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

You make it sound like bridge is a well-paid sport. I don't imagine the compensation pros get is anywhere near other professional sports. Yeesh.
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#62 User is offline   TimG 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 19:55

Echognome, on Sep 18 2007, 08:08 PM, said:

TimG, on Sep 18 2007, 04:46 PM, said:

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating.  This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it?  The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

You make it sound like bridge is a well-paid sport. I don't imagine the compensation pros get is anywhere near other professional sports. Yeesh.

Well, bridge isn't a sport...

But, whether or not the compensation is like that in professional sports is not particularly relevant. The bridge professionals playing in the World Championships on USA1 and USA2 are compensated by their sponsors/clients. I would imagine most would consider it "well compensated". The World Championships are a business trip for these professionals. To complain that participating in a World Championship means no real vacation is a bit disingenuous.
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#63 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2007-September-18, 20:19

Thanks for your nice post Jan.
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#64 User is offline   JanM 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 22:51

TimG, on Sep 18 2007, 08:55 PM, said:

Echognome, on Sep 18 2007, 08:08 PM, said:

TimG, on Sep 18 2007, 04:46 PM, said:

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating.  This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it?  The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?

You make it sound like bridge is a well-paid sport. I don't imagine the compensation pros get is anywhere near other professional sports. Yeesh.

Well, bridge isn't a sport...

But, whether or not the compensation is like that in professional sports is not particularly relevant. The bridge professionals playing in the World Championships on USA1 and USA2 are compensated by their sponsors/clients. I would imagine most would consider it "well compensated". The World Championships are a business trip for these professionals. To complain that participating in a World Championship means no real vacation is a bit disingenuous.

Not all USA players are compensated for participation in the World Championships. True, many are these days, but our Juniors certainly aren't, Chip wasn't back in the 80's when he won his first Bermdua Bowls, and we still send some amatur teams to the World Championships, for example USA2 in the Venice Cup this year. In addition, while some bridge players are full time professionals for whom I suppose this is a "business trip," many are not. For those with a "day job," bridge tournaments do in fact use up all of their vacation time. The only reason we're able to go to China early is that Chip had to take a sabbatical this quarter to be able to go at all.

And I don't mean to imply that going to bridge tournaments isn't enjoyable, I'm just trying to point out that the "elite" do contribute to the sport and sometimes give up other possible activities to do so. Nor do I want to get involved in questions of compensation or what "well compensated" means, but I suspect you have an inflated idea of how much the players (and coaches) are paid.
Jan Martel, who should probably state that she is not speaking on behalf of the USBF, the ACBL, the WBF Systems Committee, or any member of any Systems Committee or Laws Commission.
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#65 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2007-September-18, 23:23

In order to play in the last junior championship I had to quit my job and find another when I returned, at about 3/4 the pay. To play in the next one I have to save all my vacation days for 22 months as well as taking a few days of unpaid leave. If I were ever so fortunate as to play in something like the Bermuda Bowl I would have to quit my job again to be able to go (in fact, just to be able to try out, with no assurances of even going). So clearly I am just getting so rich off all this.
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#66 User is offline   Gerben42 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 00:54

Luckily there will be a next junior world championship. The pairs championship in 2008 will be held in Germany. I've already marked the date in my calendar so I can be support staff.

Unlike the world junior teams, this is an event everyone can participate in. For the junior's sake I hope there will be a camp afterwards.

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3. Junior Camps - I confess that this is the area of Junior Bridge about which I know least. I have been told that ACBL decided not to hold a Junior camp this year because of insurance issues and concerns about the wide disparity in ages of the attendees. I hope that we will find a way to hold Junior camps in the future, because I think they are a wonderful opportunity for Junior players to get to know each other. I have heard nothing but positive things about how our "stars" have behaved at the Junior camps.


Yes, I have fond memories of the ACBL camp. And as I said before the "bad elements" were not Justin, Josh, Joel or Kent. They were some young guys for whom bridge was the excuse to be able to participate in the camp.

I too was surprised that Poland didn't trash the whole bunch in Thailand. I know how good they are, not that far away from making the Polish Bermuda Bowl team. Yet they can be beaten, as we found out in Prague 2004. We led by 40 at the halfway point of the 20-board match. Let's forget the 2nd half :P Funny, that looks like some Italy matches during their EC. They have what it take to play 100% for the whole session.
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#67 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 06:46

JanM, on Sep 19 2007, 02:31 AM, said:

OK, back to my packing.

Have fun in China.

Don't be afraid to eat the street food. (It's often spectacular)
Just make sure to look for places with a long line
Alderaan delenda est
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#68 User is offline   kfay 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 21:30

I haven't read most of this post so I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet. But the article makes the claim that:

"The ACBL Board of Directors seems to be taking the view that they are spending
a lot of money on Junior Bridge, and that the benefits are only realized by a few
elite players."

If the ACBL is spending a lot of money on Junior bridge and are complaining about spending on the elite, then why were the collegiate national championships pared down from 8 to 4 teams this year even though more teams attempted to qualify than any year in recent memory.

I can hardly claim that I'm in the bridge clique or that I am anywhere near passable, let alone elite... but I have hardly noticed funding going to what would seem to me to be the most obvious source of expansion of junior bridge, the college scene.
Kevin Fay
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#69 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 22:13

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

NO!

As a matter of interest Justin, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. It is condoned but illegal. Technically you could land in strife with the Thai law, though of course in reality this never happens to Westerners. It does happen to Thais, especially Thai ladies with whom the police have issues.

I know the above is hard to believe if you go to Phuket or Pattaya, but I did live in Thailand for more than a year so I am speaking with first hand knowledge here.
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Posted 2007-September-20, 00:08

The_Hog, on Sep 19 2007, 11:13 PM, said:

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

NO!

As a matter of interest Justin, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. It is condoned but illegal. Technically you could land in strife with the Thai law, though of course in reality this never happens to Westerners. It does happen to Thais, especially Thai ladies with whom the police have issues.

I know the above is hard to believe if you go to Phuket or Pattaya, but I did live in Thailand for more than a year so I am speaking with first hand knowledge here.

Ok, obviously I was wrong/misinformed when I said this, I stand corrected.
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#71 User is offline   jkljkl 

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Posted 2007-September-20, 09:26

Jlall, on Sep 20 2007, 01:08 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Sep 19 2007, 11:13 PM, said:

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

NO!

As a matter of interest Justin, prostitution is illegal in Thailand. It is condoned but illegal. Technically you could land in strife with the Thai law, though of course in reality this never happens to Westerners. It does happen to Thais, especially Thai ladies with whom the police have issues.

I know the above is hard to believe if you go to Phuket or Pattaya, but I did live in Thailand for more than a year so I am speaking with first hand knowledge here.

Ok, obviously I was wrong/misinformed when I said this, I stand corrected.


We have good news. In germany prostitution is defintitly legal, you can even search for such a working place at the employment centre. And you can have a beer at 16.

So welcome the the WC 2008 ;-)
(If the ACBL will send players to such a Gomorrah)

As so often I do not know if I should laugh or cry when I hear such stories from the USA,

ciao
stefan
germany
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#72 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2007-September-20, 10:44

Jan:

First: Thank you for all the work you do for bridge. Administration and making things look easy is a thankless task, especially for someone who would rather "be there" herself (and face it, who is in bridge to not play bridge?) I'd like to thank you for all the work you do specifically for the USBF, but I have to admit that I can't. Something about not being USAnian...

Second: one of the things you do for bridge is participate in silly low-level discussions with regular bridge players and TDs. And unlike some world-class experts I have discussed with, you listen, think about the reply and address it. This makes a nice change from "stay on message" politics.

Third: I appreciate your civility, given that we seem to be on opposite ends of every discussion :-).

To the point: I agree with everything you have said. And were we talking about the International Fund, I would be right behind you. And I realize that International Bridge is expensive, but so are international band tours (for something in my experience). If the Junior Fund is to be the Junior International Fund, fine; label it that way and let the punters drop their dosh should they wish. But if it's just the "Junior Fund", and 90% of it is used for subsidising International play, then the criticism is accurate - it goes to the elite 20 or so.

Maybe that is what we want for the junior fund - but many would, I believe, want 100 more 30-year-old club players in 5 years than one or two more 30-year-old pros at close-to-BB level. And for that, the Junior Fund should be spent in a totally different way. Does that mean that the Internationalists will need to find another source of the money to do the work? Yes. Is that worse for bridge than the fact that I am regularly the near-youngest player in any tournament I attend (at nearly 40)? I don't know. Is it possible to change that, even if we threw money at it? Well, what we've tried so far has been brilliant; maybe paying the international funds is the best thing we can do for junior bridge after all.

As far as conduct goes, I think that, frankly, boys will be boys (and girls will be girls). Anybody remember Broadway Billy Eisenberg? Or stories about the traditional celebration of the winners of the ACBL Mixed Pairs - back when a lot of bridge players were my age? Or what the "third session" was before we instituted Midnight knock-outs? And maybe it's just my curling heritage (anyone who even thought about putting up a curling rink without a bar attached would have been, and would be, certifiable), but what do we do after the game as it is? Go out to the bar. When I was "a junior" (grad studies, I was actually about 27, but all my colleagues were real juniors), after the game we went to the bar and played bridge for a couple of hours over a jug or two (Please note: legal age in Ontario is 19 - nobody broke the law). In fact, the final game of our University club every term was *held* in a bar - and 5 tables ran up a pretty good tab over 3.5 hours.

The problem that the CBF had with its conduct code (for juniors in the international program) was primarily over the "no shared rooms with mixed genders". How do you become International-calibre? You play. A lot. In tournaments with great players. You get recognized by the experts, and they start playing with you and arranging games for you with better players. This all costs money - and a large part of it is accomodation. So what do you do? What people - even non-juniors - have done since 193x; room up - sometimes more to a room than there is bedspace. That works fine, if you're male. There's always a whole team or 6 of you to share room costs. But there are few junior females. And fewer still want to do the expert thing. And if it costs an extra $50 a night over your male competitor, because you're two-to-a-room instead of 5 or 6, you don't go to as many tournaments. So you aren't as good, and you aren't percieved as being as good even as you are, either. So much for encouraging high-level Women's bridge.

Never mind that in one case I know of, according to the CoConduct, a pair would have had to have separate rooms on the road - even though they were living in the same house, at university, the rest of the year!

Don't get me started on the (thankfully, aborted) proposed ACBL regulation that would put a member on disciplinary probation if they either drank while under 21 at a bridge tournament or offered a drink to someone under 21. Remember, legal age where I am is 18, and I had my first drink, with my parents' permission and supervision, when I was 7. Propriety, schmopriety - this is puritanism, and "protect the children", and I'm sick of it.

I'd say the same thing to the Junior team that I am now saying to you and Chip:

Have a wonderful trip. Bridge first, of course, let nothing interfere with that; and play well; but have a good time in Shanghai, not just at the table, behind the screen.

Michael (oh, and don't beat up on the Canadians too badly, eh?)
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#73 User is offline   JanM 

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Posted 2007-September-20, 18:52

mycroft, on Sep 20 2007, 11:44 AM, said:

To the point: I agree with everything you have said.  And were we talking about the International Fund, I would be right behind you.  And I realize that International Bridge is expensive, but so are international band tours (for something in my experience).  If the Junior Fund is to be the Junior International Fund, fine; label it that way and let the punters drop their dosh should they wish.  But if it's just the "Junior Fund", and 90% of it is used for subsidising International play, then the criticism is accurate - it goes to the elite 20 or so.

Thank you for responding thoughtfully also. I don't think that the fact that we might disagree means we shouldn't continue to discuss things.

I cut the rest of your post in what I quoted above because I wanted to respond specifically to my obvious failure adequately to communicate about the Junior Fund. The $50,000 that ACBL gives USBF each year from the Junior Fund is not neaerly all of the annual amount raised for the Junior Fund, it's just the amount that is allocated to International Junior bridge. I don't get a statement of the total amount raised each year for the Junior Fund (I suspect that information is available on the ACBL website, but I'm afraid I have a difficult time navigating that site :-)). However, I think that it's 3-4 times the amount that is distributed to USBF to spend on Junior International bridge. And incidentally, we use that money as well as money we raise directly for things like bridge camp tuition and sending Juniors to less prestigious international events than the World Junior Championships.

The ACBL Junior committee tries to use the money in the Junior Fund both to attract and to retain Junior players. I know that at the moment they are helping to organize a tournament for players under 19, coming out of the very successful camps that have been held in the Atlanta area thanks to the great work done there by Patty Tucker and others. THey also sponsor a bridge in schools program and do other things aimed at "average" Juniors. Unfortunately, we're all just trying to figure out how to attract and retain Juniors. I happen to think that supporting the "stars" will help to attract new players and give them a reason to continue to play. So I concentrate on the "elite." But there are plenty of other people who think it is more important to address making bridge attractive to young people through lessons in school and camps aimed at lower level players. All of us recognize that it will take the work of many to make an impact and all of us hope to be successful at that.
Jan Martel, who should probably state that she is not speaking on behalf of the USBF, the ACBL, the WBF Systems Committee, or any member of any Systems Committee or Laws Commission.
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#74 User is offline   slothy 

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Posted 2007-December-05, 11:39

The_Hog, on Sep 19 2007, 11:13 PM, said:

"Prostitution is legal in Thailand"

NO!


Wont ask how you are so well-informed about prostitution issues in Thailand Ron :)

Slothy

P.S. hope your regular check-up at the VD Clinic (after your game of ping-pong) went well :)
gaudium est miseris socios habuisse penarum - Misery loves company.
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