[Gerben42]

Okay time for me to step in.

I've participated in many junior events, including two WBF junior camps and one ACBL junior camp (which is no longer held now).

The ACBL camp was held at the campus of the university Frostburg, MD during the summer break. There was sponsoring for about 15 European juniors to join the Americans in this camp, for which I still am very grateful.

"Bad stuff" happened, but this had mostly to do with two certain Canadian brothers (not any you might know from vugraph matches), if you know them you'll know, if you don't, you haven't lost anything. I think it would have been best to not invite them anywhere else. Then they also turned up at the next camp in Hungary...

About no one wanting to host championships, it's not surprising because a large part of the cost is taking care of the bozos. I suspect the main reason Panos was booted was because of the Jesolo incident:

During the Junior European Championships in Jesolo (which basically is Venice Beach, the real one not the California one), the day trip did NOT go into one of the most beautiful cities in the world, 15 minutes away. Then on the final night everyone went to a certain place where the players could not buy beer / wine before 23h, and then only for too high prices while at the next table the officials were dining with beer and wine!. I mean, get your priorities straight. The officials are there for the juniors, not the other way around.

[awm]

I'm sorry I seem to have offended so many people. All I'm really suggesting is:

(1) If you travel somewhere on someone else's dollar in order to represent that someone else, then you have some responsibility to consider that your actions will reflect upon the entity you are representing. This may mean refraining from activities which you might engage in if your time was wholly your own.

(2) It might be reasonable to hold a team trials for the junior team. After all every other US team (open, women, seniors) is selected via a trial. As far as I know only the junior team is selected by the members of last year's team.

(3) It's not clear that having a winning junior team necessarily translates into more young bridge players. After all, the USA has had very successful junior teams in recent years (as well as very successful teams in all other brackets of international competition). I wouldn't say the US has had a huge influx of young bridge players, or even that bridge is doing better among young players in the US than in other countries whose national teams haven't fared so well. These facts do call into question decisions to spend substantial amounts of money on training/transporting the junior team.

(4) The ACBL could consider other ways to spend its money. One possibility might be holding a juniors-only regional tournament and providing subsidies (or even free trips) to interested juniors. Ideal would be to hold this over summer break and at a popular vacation spot, encouraging the juniors' families to come for a vacation. Cash prizes (or scholarships) might make this even more appealing.

[nickf]

awm, on Sep 18 2007, 10:04 AM, said:

<snip>

I never indicated that people were doing anything illegal under the laws of the host country. The point was that traveling in order to bypass US law (for example going to Thailand in order to solicit prostitutes, or the Netherlands in order to smoke marijuana, or many places in Europe in order to drink when under 21) is legally and ethically somewhat questionable.

<endsnip>

Perhaps I dont fully understand awm's argument but is he saying that carrying out activities that are legal or decriminalised in another country where they are not in one's home country is ethically somewhat questionable?

Is that like me driving on the other side of the road when I go Europe? In Australia it's illegal to drive on the right side of a two way street. Is it unethical for me to do so when I go to Europe?

How about hookers in Bangkok? Exactly what is the ethical transgression here as long as the transaction is carried out in a safe manner?

Dope in Amsterdam? My understanding is that cannibis is decriminalised in The Netherlands. Again, what's the ethical dilemna? Who governs the ethical standards of travelling junior bridge players in any case? I'd have more concern about the consumption of alcohol or nicotine than a few joints in Dutch cafe. But I shouldn't should I, as these are legal under USA jurisdiction.


nickf
sydney

[awm]

Imagine a story:

Bridge League Flies Top Teens to Amsterdam, Subsidizes Hookers, Dope

Okay, those things are legal in Amsterdam. Maybe if it was the Dutch Bridge League this would go over okay (hey those bridge players really know how to party). But I don't think this story would be well-received in the USA if the league in question is ACBL, do you? While this might encourage some people to play bridge, I bet a lot of parents/grandparents would be horrified (and prevent their kids/grandkids from being involved with ACBL). I think it's in the league's best interest not to have such stories surface, or to send kids overseas who might lead to such stories surfacing. And maybe it's the players' responsibility to realize it won't just be their name in the story, it will be the league's good name dragged through the mud as well.

[Impact]

Nick - they're probably legal for 18 yearolds in Amsterdam but not legal not legally able to drink in half their own home states (see my earlier post).

There is a representative element but people should not get hung up about their own personal morals not being reflected by a team.

Hence I think the Code of Conduct method (tweaked appropriately) works well as it lets everyone know BEFOREHAND what is generally expected of them and that they agree to abide by it as a condition of their ratification as a representative team (and the accompanying sponsorship).

regards

[mike777]

jdonn, on Sep 18 2007, 01:54 AM, said:

I know you didn't suggest the camp be shut down. But Mike seemed to interpret what you said to mean the entire program should not exist, so I was replying to that. I assume that the first time a 65 year old bridge player gets arrested at a bridge tournament, that will be the end of all senior events according to him.

in its present form, yes I got the impression it should not and since the radical changes were not suggested, yes that was my impression. the money could be better spent in other forms of junior bridge.

I note I have no idea what junior bridge camp is or should be. At the very least I sense much anger against change at the very least.

In any event it seems that is what is happening if I can read the tea leaves.

[mike777]

nickf, on Sep 18 2007, 02:37 AM, said:

awm, on Sep 18 2007, 10:04 AM, said:

<snip>

I never indicated that people were doing anything illegal under the laws of the host country. The point was that traveling in order to bypass US law (for example going to Thailand in order to solicit prostitutes, or the Netherlands in order to smoke marijuana, or many places in Europe in order to drink when under 21) is legally and ethically somewhat questionable.

<endsnip>

Perhaps I dont fully understand awm's argument but is he saying that carrying out activities that are legal or decriminalised in another country where they are not in one's home country is ethically somewhat questionable?

Is that like me driving on the other side of the road when I go Europe? In Australia it's illegal to drive on the right side of a two way street. Is it unethical for me to do so when I go to Europe?

How about hookers in Bangkok? Exactly what is the ethical transgression here as long as the transaction is carried out in a safe manner?

Dope in Amsterdam? My understanding is that cannibis is decriminalised in The Netherlands. Again, what's the ethical dilemna? Who governs the ethical standards of travelling junior bridge players in any case? I'd have more concern about the consumption of alcohol or nicotine than a few joints in Dutch cafe. But I shouldn't should I, as these are legal under USA jurisdiction.


nickf
sydney

Nick you seem to make naive comments at the extreme.
1) prostitution is illegal in thailand. It is not legal or decrimanial.(sp)
2) many prostitutes are forced slaves
3) many prostitutes, male or female are children.
4) Do you really believe people get certified birth cert. showing age or health condition?
5) in this digitial age do really think someone might not videotape forever on internet USA reps?
6) despite all of the above you seem to say...seem to say...ya go ahead......pay for it.....ingore all those old fuddy duddies.
7) let me take an extreme but very possible situation. A 22 year old great pro junior sleeps with what he thinks is an adult but is a child or is a sex slave ...and the vidoe(sp) is posted on internet.

[jikl]

OK, let's take a reverse view here. If an Australian 20 year old was caught having a beer in the US they would be breaking a law despite the fact it would be legal in Australia. Deport them now and throw them in jail for life?

Get a grip. Oops, that phrase probably has connotations that are illegal in some countries. I give up.

The bridge average age is getting older, it will continue to get older while medical advances continue to prolong life. Most of the elderly players never want to see a youth player because they might be better and they don't have the tact to be a winner without gloating at the table. They do want to see youth players, just not at their table.

Sean

[Gerben42]

PLAN OF ACTION

Junior camps: Have more of them. Juniors want to play bridge against other juniors rather than 60+ people. What would be really great for bridge in the States if someone would step up and create a junior camp outside the ACBL.

Michael Gromöller (Blade) and friends have done this in Germany and after 19 years it is still a great success and has contributed enormously to junior bridge here.

What is the difference between the ACBL camp and "Rieneck"? The ACBL camp had way too many rules. The officials felt the obligation to control everything. Example: no alcohol during the camp.

HELLO?

You invite European juniors between 21 and 25 years old to a camp and tell them "no alcohol"? Get real people. I mean, a beer is okay. 3 beer is also okay. 13 beer = not okay.

In Rieneck there is a simple rule: No alcohol for under 16s. Depending on the country you live in this number may be different but there is no problem with it.

Goal of the camp is to play with other young players you probably would not even have met otherwise, to make friends who share your passion.

Maybe the ACBL membership is too conservative to support these kinds of camps, but aren't there other summer camps in the US too? I think camps outside of ACBL jurisdiction is the solution.

[mike777]

If juniors want to play bridge against people younger than 50 in ACBL...we got a huge problem.

If juniors accept playing bridge againt people older than 50, they may soon be superstars.

If juniors want an attitude under 20...they got a huge problem.
If juniors understand everyone is over 50, they may win big.

[Codo]

Maybe Gerbens memories about his youth days are fresher then Adams or Mikes?

If you put a bundle of teenagers and/or a crowd of midtwenties together, what will happen?

Look at a boyscout camp, a basketball camp, whatever:

The most kids follow the rules but there often one or two who don´t.
This is as normal as breathing. Of course you have to take care of these "bad" guys, but to stop the youth camps because of some single events is too silly too comment.

Of course, if you represend your country, your standards must be higher then when you are alonewith your crowd in your holidays. And of course you have to respect the rules in the country you are AND the ones from home.
If it is legal to marry animals in Austria, you still better don´t do it as long as it is forbidden in your home country.

But: Who will claim that the US team did not match this description? Where did they behave worse (or just as normal) as normal teens and twens from the US while visiting Thailand/Amsterdam/Venice in a crowd of others?

I think there had been just some frustrated people in their midsixties, jealous about the fun, success and ability of the juniors, who just want to show their remaining power in stopping events where the youth can have fun.

[jikl]

I forgot to mention this but the editorial of the Australian Bridge Federation newsletter also referred to this article:

http://www.abf.com.a...ter/Sept07a.pdf

Sean

[TimG]

I attended an ACBL Junior Camp quite a few years ago. I was of legal drinking age at the time, I hung out with a number of others who were also of legal drinking age.

I don't recall having a single alcoholic drink during camp, though it is not something that would have stood out if I had been offered a beer and accepted. Nor do I recall any heavy drinking by others. I might have just been hanging out with the wrong (or right) sub-group from the camp.

Meeting and playing bridge with a bunch of similarly ages folk was a great experience. I made a number of friends through the camp, many of whom I played bridge with after camp, some of whom I am still in touch with over 15 years later.

I think bridge camps and SO sponsored national teams should be two different issues and should be treated differently.

Junior bridge camps will likely always pose problems, just as anything that puts teenagers and twenty-somethings who likely are living independently in the same social group would. Requiring participants to sign a conduct form as a condition of participation should go a ways toward solving the problem. Sure, some won't attend as a result, but expectations will be set.

I wouldn't see any problem if fewer twenty-somethings participated in "junior" camps.

Anyway, it's a shame that ACBL is not running any Junior Camps. If it were up to me, I'd be running multiple junior camps each year, not eliminating them.

[hrothgar]

Summer after 10th grade, my parents shipped me off to a Goethe Institute language camp for a month and a half. (This was an intensive immersion type program located just outside of Fulda). I'm quite sure that the folks who ran this program ran into a very similar set of problems as the folks who organize bridge camps and championships. Somehow, the folks running the program got by despite being plagued with large numbers of Americans experimenting with sex, drugs, and rock and roll.

Personally, I think that the main isuse boils down to a question of responsibility (please note: I am not talking about the juniors here). If the folks running a program think that someone is misbehaving, give the bastard the boot. I recognize that in a modern litigious society like the US, one can't say that "Richard Willey was expelled from the Junior program because he committed an unnatural act with an underaged sheep". However, if you quietly dismiss a few people I suspect that the rest will get the message shape up

I spent a summer working as a camp counselor for the YMCA at an over night camp. I know for a fact that a number of campers were quietly "disappeared" for various infractions.

I think that the decision to eliminate the entire program amounts to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[keylime]

This thread has reminded me of a situation I was in while serving the Air Force in the early '90's.

I was part of a rapid deployment force that went around the world on 6-12 hours notice. Basically, our chain of command was very compact: colonel, 3 star general, 4 star, secretary of the Air force, DOD chief, President. That's it. Some of the places I went to I still can't discuss in public; they are viewed as sensitive (it's not even one of those "over a couple of drinks" thing either - we're talking SCI clearances and up).

Due to our globetrotting, we were constantly having to assess what the local laws were with regards to drugs and alcohol and such. Since there was mandatory drug testing in the USAF at that time, no one in my unit took 'em - it was not only career-ending but very taboo in my unit. Alcohol tho was quite different; we held the view that if we were of age in-country, we were going to enjoy the local quaffs. And frankly, in my younger days, no one could touch me in this department - I viewed alcohol as a relaxer and a fundamentally necessary item to handle the 12 hour shifts, the severe Balkan winters, the long trips away from San Francisco, the desert sandstorms, and being half a world away in New Zealand doing the Antarctic resupply for Deep Freeze. Does this make me a bad person? Absolutely not - I used drink to adapt from a shy southerner that hadn't seen anything in his life to having the whole world as his oyster.

After one of my trips from the Kosovo airlifts at Aviano AB in Italy, all the members of our unit came back from TDY and was sat down in a room and read an order from the base commander of Travis AFB stating that regardless of whether or not the in-country's laws allowed alcohol consumption, we were barred unless 21.

Let me tell ya, there were some angry young men ready to riot over this. Not one of us, not a single person signed that unlawful order. The commander of my unit discussed this with our group commander and basically found us an out - since we were a tenant organization we were thusly not aligned with the air mobility wing, and therefore not under his/her orders. Furthermore, the Uniform Code of Military Justice gave additional protections with regards to this.

For me there are many parallels to this situation: the ACBL being overcontrolling and unrealistic, juniors who did not break the local law and acted appropriately with good taste, and adults attempting to handcuff and restrain. It's very simple: good judgment will triumph most of the time, and the only way that youngsters are going to learn that is to give them the room to discover, to err, and to overcome.

[jdonn]

mike777, on Sep 18 2007, 05:53 AM, said:

If juniors want to play bridge against people younger than 50 in ACBL...we got a huge problem.

If juniors accept playing bridge againt people older than 50, they may soon be superstars.

If juniors want an attitude under 20...they got a huge problem.
If juniors understand everyone is over 50, they may win big.

Uhhhhh + WTF + LOL + sigh + ??? = my reaction

[matmat]

i think this topic has been touched upon in an old song by murray head, even though the actual piece was about a different game, it seems mildly appropriate.

[helene_t]

I agree with Richard, Han and Justin, but maybe one should not expect ACBL and similar BFs to take the same position. Most 60+ YOs want to play bridge with other 60+ YOs, they are not interested in promoting youth bridge.

The problem with the young people is not that they drink, sniff and solicit hookers. The problem is that they don't socialize with old people. And even if they did, not all old people would appreciate it. We just don't like teenagers.

[JanM]

This thread has certainly given me lot to think about as I packed for China. Now that all the suitcases are full and ready to go, I guess I should try to articulate some of my thoughts, but it's hard to know where to start.

I guess the first thing I'd like to address is the concept that our "elite" Juniors get some wonderful free ride that allows them to go off and party for two weeks every year or so. That is so far from the truth that it would be funny if it weren't so depressing. Our "stars" (both Juniors and adults) work extremely hard at this game. They practice, they discuss, they read, they practice some more. The ACBL gives USBF $50,000 a year to support our International Junior program. If you think that's a lot, start adding up the airfare and room and board expenses for four Junior teams. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I know that in order to provide transportation and room and board last year we had to raise an additional $30,000 or more. We didn't have any money left over for "luxuries" like training camps or a coach for the team. To suggest that anyone was providing enough money that the players could use it to purchase alcohol or sex is absurd.

Before the tournament last year, several people told me we had no chance - after all, Poland, Italy & some of the other countries had invested substantial amounts of money selecting and training their Junior teams and we hadn't. We won not because we were able to throw money at our Juniors but because they are a talented, hard-working, motivated and very competitive group of young men. And they are also, all of them, wonderful ambassadors for bridge, both in this country and abroad. I heard nothing but positive things about their behavior, both at and away from the table. We should all be very proud of their achievement & attitude. I know I am.

Second, just a few corrections to the "facts" I've seen reading through this thread:

1. The IBPA editorial states that there will not be a World Junior Championship in 2008. That is completely false. The name may be different, but the World Junior Olympiad that will be held at the Mind Sports Games in Beijing in September & October next year is very definitely a World Junior Championship. In addition, the FISU (I'm not sure of the exact words that acronym stand for, but I know the U is Universitaire) games will be held in early September. At this time there is no event scheduled limited to players under 21, but I hope we will also see a championship for that age group.

2. Adam consistently complains that USBF does not select its Junior teams with a Trials. In fact, as both Justin and Josh mentioned, we hold a Junior Trials to select our international teams, with the one exception that in any year in which there are four previous medal-winners who are eligible to compete and who want to compete, the USBF Board will normally nominate them as USA1. If we have nominated a team of four or five previous medal winners, they, in conjunction with their NPC, then select additional players to bring the team to 6. The team is reviewed by the USBF Credentials Committee and then by the USBF Board before being nominated. Believe me, none of us is looking at any of these players on any basis other than the likelihood that they will perform well. So far, this procedure seems to have worked well, since our nomimated teams have in fact won. One reason that we adopted this procedure, in addition to the feeling that medal winners deserved to have the chance to defend, is that unfortunately our Juniors do not have the time or money to attend a Junior Trials that lasts for long enough to be really formful. We hold the Junior Trials at an NABC. It is typically two days long, although this year we have extended it to a third day. That means that there have to be some 32 board matches. I hesitate to say that any team can beat any other team in a 32 board match, but certainly we've all seen lots of upsets when matches are that short. Compare this with our Open, Women's and Seniors Trials where the matches are never shorter than 60 boards and usually longer. I can't believe that I actually have to say this, but our main goal for our Junior teams is to win the World Junior Championships. Doing so is good for bridge, good for the US, good for the players. You're going to have a very hard time convincing me that we're doing the wrong thing when our teams perform as they have both at and away from the table.

3. Junior Camps - I confess that this is the area of Junior Bridge about which I know least. I have been told that ACBL decided not to hold a Junior camp this year because of insurance issues and concerns about the wide disparity in ages of the attendees. I hope that we will find a way to hold Junior camps in the future, because I think they are a wonderful opportunity for Junior players to get to know each other. I have heard nothing but positive things about how our "stars" have behaved at the Junior camps.

OK, back to my packing. Which perhaps makes me particularly testy about the whole "elite" concept. Obviously I (or my husband anyway) am part of that "elite." I can't remember the last non-bridge vacation we took. That we're actually managing to go to China a week early in order to do some sightseeing is amazing. Usually, we go two or three days early to acclimate to the time change and then spend the rest of our vacation in a typical convention center or ballroom full of bridge players, and that's after having spent the month or month and a half before the tournament reviewing the other teams' convention cards, developing defenses and practicing against new methods. Neither ACBL nor USBF has ever reimbursed anything like our full travel and lodging expenses, even in 2001 when we were both entitled to reimbursement because I was the NPC of Chip's team. Bridge is a wonderful game and has given us many many wonderful experiences, but it isn't all one-sided, believe me. And that applies even more to our Juniors, who have less money (but maybe more time) than most of the "adults" among us, and probably have more options for ways to spend their time and money.

[TimG]

JanM, on Sep 18 2007, 06:31 PM, said:

OK, back to my packing. Which perhaps makes me particularly testy about the whole "elite" concept. Obviously I (or my husband anyway) am part of that "elite." I can't remember the last non-bridge vacation we took. That we're actually managing to go to China a week early in order to do some sightseeing is amazing. Usually, we go two or three days early to acclimate to the time change and then spend the rest of our vacation in a typical convention center or ballroom full of bridge players, and that's after having spent the month or month and a half before the tournament reviewing the other teams' convention cards, developing defenses and practicing against new methods. Neither ACBL nor USBF has ever reimbursed anything like our full travel and lodging expenses, even in 2001 when we were both entitled to reimbursement because I was the NPC of Chip's team. Bridge is a wonderful game and has given us many many wonderful experiences, but it isn't all one-sided, believe me.

You make it sound a bit like you're doing us a favor by participating. This "vacation" you are taking is more like a business trip, isn't it? The players (and coaches) on both USA teams are well compensated by their sponsors (at this event and at the Trials to select the US teams), are they not?