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biding after 1nt overcall

#21 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 09:33

mikeh, on Sep 17 2007, 01:09 PM, said:

We have to have an understanding of what 2♥ shows.

1stly, it DENIES a good hand. I would be surprised if partner holds a decent 9 count. Good hands start with double (maybe not if a real freak: an in-context monster 2-suiter, for example, would bid 2N and a one suiter would either double or bid higher than 2)

I misunderstood Mikes post 'Good hands start with double' and thought X was t/o.

All X's of opps 1nt are for penalty?

1x (1nt) X = penalty
(1nt) X = penalty
P (1nt) X = penalty

1x (1nt) 2y = weak
1x (1nt) 3y = gf
1x (1nt) 2nt = gf
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
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"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." (MH)
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#22 User is offline   jtfanclub 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 09:56

Sorry jdonn, I misunderstood your post. Never mind.
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#23 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 10:06

Ok.

Remember that an auction that begins with an opponent opening 1N (I will assume strong 1N for the purposes of the discussion) is fundamentally different from an auction that begins with partner opening the bidding and RHO overcalling 1N.

In the first case, a useful working proposition is that the high card points that LHO and partner hold are about the same. If 1N shows roughly 16 and you hold 10, then partner and LHO will hold, on average, about 7 points each. So you are outgunned on points.

While many pairs still play that a direct double of 1N is a big hand (i.e. suggests penalty), that is low frequency, and sometimes partner's hand disappoints. So many pairs prefer to use a defensive scheme that sacrifices the ability to show a big hand by using double to show something else... a one suited overcall, for example.

Accordingly, while the traditional meaning of a direct double of a 1N opening was 'penalty', relatively few tournament players still use it that way.

Now, consider how the points are likely to be distributed if partner opens and you hold 10 points after RHO overcalls 1N. Give partner, say, 13 (yes, partner may have less, but partner won't always be minimum) and overcaller 16. You hold 10. That leaves LHO looking at a solitary Jack, if he is lucky :P

So, when we hold a 'good hand' and partner has promised opening values, we rate to have the opponents on the chopping block, and now is the time to weild the axe.

Yes, when we have a stiff or xx in diamonds and partner opened 1♣ (and we open 1♦ with 4=4), we may once in a while find the opps running a bunch of diamond tricks, but this is very rare, in my experience... and when it could happen, sometimes we run our tricks first and sometimes they run to diamonds and we find our contract.

Playing 1N doubled with 16 points in our hand and none in dummy is a terrible, terrible experience on most occasions. As the LHO with the 10-11 hcp sitting over the 1N overcaller, it is our sacred duty to allow the overcaller the full joy of this experience :)

As for 1y [1N] 2z: this is weak... to play. It has to be. There will be hands on which we hold a reasonable, but not strong, 6+ suit and few hcp. Do we really have to pass 1N? We likely won't beat it because our suit isn't that strong and we lack side entries... plus dummy will have a few points to help declarer. Meanwhile, maybe we can make 8 tricks in our suit.

As for 1y [1N] 3z: this is preemptive. If we have a good hand, especially with a long suit suitable, in the absence of known fit, to bid at the 3-level (forcing, no less) then we have entries outside of our suit and/or a running suit. We should be doubling! Since we will be doubling on hands where we can make game on power (+1100 beats +420 by a LOT), we exclude these from the meaning of a jump to the 3-level. Since we are jumping to the 3-level on a relatively weak hand, we need a LOOOONNNNNGGGGG suit (typically a 7 card suit) with some internal texture, but not many hcp. KQ109xxx would be typical, with nothing outside... or QJ109xxxx with a little shape. Frankly, it is not a call I have made or seen made very often.

There will be the very rare hand on which we can reasonably expect that doubling 1N won't be as good as bidding our own game. We may have a massive one-suiter and side shortness, with the opps white and us red. We can, if we are confident in our reading of the hand, just bid our game. More commonly (but still very rarely) we will have a 5-5 or better two-suiter, with values. Most experts would use the 'impossible' bid of 2N to announce this. Impossible, because if we expect to make 2 or 3N with the opps on lead, surely we are going to crush 1N.
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#24 User is offline   ralph23 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 10:09

I misunderstood Mikes post 'Good hands start with double' and thought X was t/o.

Well.... actually, I think you thought it was a negative double???

But a negative double (in this context) only occurs when the overcaller is overcalling in a new suit, up to whatever level (in SAYC e.g. that is by default 2♠ ... you probably play it higher...).

There's a really good writeup of negative doubles in Fred's LTPB module under Competitive Bidding (after an overcall). Not as complete perhaps as the Bergen book but still very good.

The standard treatment is after the 1nt overcall (1) any hand with 9+ (or so) will double, and (2) anything else by responder denies that good a hand. So "all good hands start with double."
♣♦♥♠ Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that other philosophers are all jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself. H.L. Mencken. ♣♦♥♠
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#25 User is offline   ralph23 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 10:24

All X's of opps 1nt are for penalty?

Well, no. No one said that.

For instance, (1♦) - p - (1nt) - X by you; your double is takeout of diamonds.

1nt opening is doubled: most play some kind of convention (DONT, etc... in that convention, double may have some special meaning, as in DONT, a long suit somewhere. Of course, in some conventions, X is retained as penalty, e.g. Capp)

1x (1nt) X = penalty
(1nt) X = penalty
P (1nt) X = penalty


Most people play examples 2 and 3 as "double is conventional" but yes, in standard with no anti-NT conventions, it is penalty.

1x (1nt) 2y = weak
1x (1nt) 3y = gf
1x (1nt) 2nt = gf


#4. Yes 2y is weak and natural.
#5. Since "all good hands start with double", you know that 3y can't be GF. It's preemptive.
#6. All good hands start with double. So this must be conventional. I'd take it as an imaginative extension of the Unusual 2nt and the 1x opener should pull it to whatever-is-his-favored lowest-unbid-suit. Maybe 2nt bidder has "one of those hands" and his next call will be a surprise. I don't think this scenario is worth losing a lot of sleep over.
♣♦♥♠ Philosophy consists very largely of one philosopher arguing that other philosophers are all jackasses. He usually proves it, and I should add that he also usually proves that he is one himself. H.L. Mencken. ♣♦♥♠
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#26 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 10:52

A double of 1NT is generally for penalty. There are a number of reasons for this.
- Opps bidding 1NT tends to show that we are unlikely to have game. Hence we do not need the shape-showing bids as constructive but can use them for competitive/preemptive purposes. This in turn means that we need a bid for the strong hands we occasionally have.
- A t/o double tends to show shortness in opps suit but there is no such suit.
- Opps bidding 1NT tends to show that they have no fit so far, so we may also have no fit.
- Even if we have a fit, defending 1NT (as opposed to defending a low-level suit partscore) is ok. The suit in which we have a fit will be a menace to their notrump contract as well.

There is one situation in which most play a double of 1NT as t/o, namely
(1x)-p-(1NT)-x

and a couple of other situations in which you may agree with partner to play double a t/o. But 1x-(1NT)-x is certainly not among them - this should be penalties.
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#27 User is offline   Ant590 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 10:55

ralph23, on Sep 19 2007, 11:24 AM, said:

1x (1nt) 2nt = gf


#6. All good hands start with double. So this must be conventional. I'd take it as an imaginative extension of the Unusual 2nt and the 1x opener should pull it to whatever-is-his-favored lowest-unbid-suit. Maybe 2nt bidder has "one of those hands" and his next call will be a surprise. I don't think this scenario is worth losing a lot of sleep over.

I think Hardy advocated that #6 is a hand that thinks it can't get a positive enough score from defending NT doubled, but for certain has game values and quite possibly slam aspiration. It's in his 2/1 book if anyone wants me to name my source :P
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#28 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 11:23

mikeh put it all very well.

1x (1NT) dbl is BLOOD ON THE TABLE TIME

1x (1NT) 2NT is some unusual game forcing hand, usually a two-suiter
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#29 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2007-September-19, 11:56

Hannie, on Sep 19 2007, 06:59 AM, said:

That hand really isn't a problem hand, it is a very clear penalty double. There really is no reason to think that they have 5 diamond tricks, it is possible but far from certain.

No call will work every time, but you just have to make the best call with the information you have. There double is clear. Sometimes you will set it 1 trick while you have game, but other times you won't have game and perhaps set it 3 or 4 tricks (no, that is not wishful thinking any more than 5 diamond tricks is overly pessimistic).

Depending on vulnerability I'd either make a penalty double whith that hand or bid 2♦ showing both majors. Following up with bidding or forcing to game next after 2♦.
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#30 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2007-September-20, 11:51

Thanks all this is very helpful :)
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
Bridge should be fun!
SHAPE!
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." (MH)
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#31 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2007-September-20, 11:57

3C is reasonable, but I would pass 2H.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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