[matmat]

What sort of agreements/understandings do you have about the following auction?

1M-(simple overcall)-4M


does it matter if it goes
1H-(1s)-4H
vs
1M-(2 berries)-4M
?

does it say anything about controls? aces? shape (aside from the usual 4.5+ of the major)?

etc.

(note, this is the sayc - 2/1 forum, so we're not looking at these sequences in precision or related systems where they are much different).

[Codo]

In SEF this is defined as: 5 card support, at most 10 HCPs, at most an outside ace.
I am not sure about the required min. but I think it is about 6 or even 8 HCPs.

At the MBC or in an Indy, this is what I would expect.

[Gerben42]

Basically preemptive, little defense, 5-card support and shape (preferably not 5332).

A "standard" hand for the bid would be

---

[ralph23]

What sort of agreements/understandings do you have about the following auction?

1M-(simple overcall)-4M

May be a bad hand, great suit, pre-emptive, hopefully some shape. If partner has a good hand with support he can cue bid.

does it matter if it goes
1H-(1s)-4H
vs
1M-(2 berries)-4M
?

No. But if M is hearts, and berries is a jump to 2 spades, then a 3 spade cuebid must imply interest in slam, because we can't possibly stop below 4 hearts in such an auction.

does it say anything about controls? aces? shape (aside from the usual 4.5+ of the major)?

No, except that my shape isn't too bad. We don't define "too bad" very tightly.

[SoTired]

Personally, 10hcp is too many for me, but that is a quibble. Basically, after 1S (2C), 4S is NOT bid on Qxxx AKx Kxxx xx. That hand makes an LR+ system defined bid (3C for most).

[glen]

Based on experience in ACBL BBO tourneys, the general "understanding" is random, having about 0-17 points with 3 or longer M.

I prefer the understanding of about 7-11 support points, 5 or longer in M or 4 in M with shortness in the overcall suit.

[pclayton]

Most hands with 5 trump, an outside s/v and less than an 8 count.

An exception: 4 trump and a side suit and the same count if we aren't playing fit jumps, or the suit is insufficient for a fit jump.

[matmat]

That narrows it down a bit... noooot

guess what I am trying to figure out is, given that P made such a jump, when is it reasonable to make a slam try? For those that jump on 4-10.5 so long as they have the required number of trump, how do you feel when p wraps 6 having opened a shapely 18 count 1M?

jumping with a s/v, is it necessarily a s/v in the overcalled suit? it just seems like 4M is a call that some fraction of the time lands us in an unmakable game, other times keeps us from slam and, i suppose a majority (though i'd guess not a vast majority) gets us to the right spot. I'm curious if there are slightly more accurate sequences...

[cherdano]

pclayton, on Sep 12 2007, 11:28 AM, said:

Most hands with 5 trump, an outside s/v and less than an 8 count.

An exception: 4 trump and a side suit and the same count if we aren't playing fit jumps, or the suit is insufficient for a fit jump.

or a fit jump might help opponents finding their double fit, or avoiding their phantom save, ...

I started a thread on this a while ago, I think it is useful to jump to 4M with a wider range of hands than just pure classical preempts as opponents will make a mistake over 4M more often.

[pclayton]

cherdano, on Sep 12 2007, 11:38 AM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 12 2007, 11:28 AM, said:

Most hands with 5 trump, an outside s/v and less than an 8 count.

An exception: 4 trump and a side suit and the same count if we aren't playing fit jumps, or the suit is insufficient for a fit jump.

or a fit jump might help opponents finding their double fit, or avoiding their phantom save, ...

I started a thread on this a while ago, I think it is useful to jump to 4M with a wider range of hands than just pure classical preempts as opponents will make a mistake over 4M more often.

I keep hearing this argument and I keep seeing hands where pard is helped greatly with the knowledge we have a side fit.

Case in point: In the Pairs on Friday I open 2♥ in 2nd seat with a red 5-5. Here's the entire hand:

Scoring: MP

---

West doubled and pard bid 3♦. I corrected to 3♥ (4♦ is probably better) and West doubled. 3♠ - 4♦ - 4♠ - 5♦ - p - p - x. -300 was a very nice save.

Which of EW do you think should take the push to 5♠. I don't think either did anything wrong.

[pclayton]

Jlall, on Sep 12 2007, 12:18 PM, said:

pclayton, on Sep 12 2007, 03:15 PM, said:

Which of EW do you think should take the push to 5♠. I don't think either did anything wrong.

lol are you serious?

Are you saying West should bid 5 over 5 here?

[P_Marlowe]

A 4M bid can be made on a wide variety
of hands.
Usually it shows a hand with lots of trumps
and shape.

If you play fit jumps and over types of raises
the list of hands reduces, and thats the reason,
why you play fit jumps / mixed raises, ...

It is certainly not an invitation to look for
slam, opener may move, but only if trump
support is the only thing he needs.

To acertain degree it takes opener out of
the decision process, if they compete over
4M, because responder can create a forcing
pass sequence, and he should.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

matmat, on Sep 12 2007, 02:31 PM, said:

That narrows it down a bit... noooot

guess what I am trying to figure out is, given that P made such a jump, when is it reasonable to make a slam try?  For those that jump on 4-10.5 so long as they have the required number of trump, how do you feel when p wraps 6 having opened a shapely 18 count 1M?

jumping with a s/v, is it necessarily a s/v in the overcalled suit? it just seems like 4M is a call that some fraction of the time lands us in an unmakable game, other times keeps us from slam and, i suppose a majority (though i'd guess not a vast majority) gets us to the right spot. I'm curious if there are slightly more accurate sequences...

There are.

Have a look at
"Partnership Bidding" from Robson / Seagal.
http://www.geocities.com/daniel_neill_2000...ingAtBridge.ZIP

The book discusses methods to avoid the last guesss.
But the methods described there are not common
sense, the book is intended for serious / regular
partnerships.

With kind regards
Marlowe