[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

1. Does anyone play TRaSH overcalls (TRansfer + SHape) over opp's artificial 1♣ or 2♣ opening?

2. How do they work?

3. Is TRaSH the same as Suction?

[skjaeran]

I haven't hear about Trash overcalls before, but googled and found them.
TRASH is an acronym for TRAnsfer or SHape. It's a 1NT defence (can be used vs 2NT too), and shows either a 1-suiter in the suit transfered to or 55 in the next two suits. That means it's just the same as Suction or Yeslek as it's called in Norway.

Yeslek is a somewhat popular defence to a stron 1♣ opening in parts of Norway. Brogeland-Sælensminde uses it - it's been on their CC as long as I can remember and they're using it in the BB in Shanghai.

[Tola18]

In Sweden is Trash or variatons thereof not unusual against strong club.
Thus for example I myself did misbid it once with a partner who used them

(I accepted to play trash as this was the least complicated defense he used, and this one I could understand and remember...).

Also a couple of swedish players I know on BBO did construct and use sometimes variations of Trash. UMF and HV71.

[ralph23]

skaeran, on Sep 5 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

TRASH is an acronym for TRAnsger or SHape. It's a 1NT defence (can be used vs 2NT too), and shows either a 1-suiter in the suit transfered to or 55 in the next two suits. That means it's just the same as Suction or Yeslek as it's called in Norway.

Yes, but in ACBL-land, TRaSH isn't legal against natural NT Openings. It is (apparently) legal against both artificial 1 and 2♣ openings.

[ArtK78]

ralph23, on Sep 5 2007, 03:59 PM, said:

skaeran, on Sep 5 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

TRASH is an acronym for TRAnsger or SHape. It's a 1NT defence (can be used vs 2NT too), and shows either a 1-suiter in the suit transfered to or 55 in the next two suits. That means it's just the same as Suction or Yeslek as it's called in Norway.

Yes, but in ACBL-land, TRaSH isn't legal against natural NT Openings. It is (apparently) legal against both artificial 1 and 2♣ openings.

On the contrary, Ralph. TRaSH against a 1NT opening (and any other defense against a 1NT opening not allowed on the General Chart) is legal in the ACBL in events that permit Mid-Chart conventions, as TRaSH is a pre-alertable Mid-Chart convention.

The General Chart allows all defenses against 1NT openings which show at least one known suit (except that double and 2♣ do not require a known suit). If a conventional defense to a 1NT opening uses any other bid besides double and 2♣ which does not promise a known suit - such as TRaSH - it is a pre-alertable Mid-Chart convention.

[ralph23]

ArtK78, on Sep 5 2007, 05:48 PM, said:

[On the contrary, Ralph. TRaSH against 1NT openings (and any other defense against 1NT openings) is legal in the ACBL. It is a Mid-Chart convention. It requires a pre-alert.

Yea, I should have said on the GCC it's not legal against NT. I'm not playing in many Mid-Chart games.

[blackshoe]

ralph23, on Sep 5 2007, 04:56 PM, said:

Yea, I should have said on the GCC it's not legal against NT. I'm not playing in many Mid-Chart games.

There is, IMO, a flaw in the ACBL's thinking here. First there are a lot of folks who, if they had their way, the only legal systems and conventions would be the ones they play. Second, the ACBL caters (at least to some extent) to those people by (a) making a fairly restrictive "general convention chart" and ( only allowing that chart at most events. Personally, I think that some events at virtually every Sectional ought to allow the MidChart, and almost all events at Regionals should do so. And I think that clubs ought to allow MidChart as a matter of course, and perhaps Superchart - or even "anything goes" - at say, one event a month, or one a quarter, or some such. It would make the game in North America much more interesting.

The worst thing clubs can do, IMO is, as has happened to me, to tell players "you can play anything you want" and then, after they've been playing something or other for a month or two tell them "that convention is banned in this club" or "you can play that GCC convention, but you have to treat it as if it were MidChart".

[han]

I have played suction in the past, but I'm not a big fan. We've had plenty of discussions about strong club interference, I suggest you try to search for them.

[Gerben42]

I'm not a big fan of the ordinary suction either, because it gives the opponents a free Dbl. It breaks Gerben's golden rule of agressive interference that states that a suit bid against a strong artificial opening bid should either promise the bid suit, or have no anchor suit with the bid suit among the possibilities.

[gwnn]

inverted psycho suction is as good a system as any and better than most.

x=(x and x+1) OR x+2

[ralph23]

gwnn, on Sep 6 2007, 04:33 AM, said:

inverted psycho suction is as good a system as any and better than most.

x=(x and x+1) OR x+2

It's (IPS) worth playing simply for the name alone.

Seriously, is there any difference between TRaSH and Suction? Or are they just two different names for the same thing??

This post has been edited by ralph23: 2007-September-07, 10:26

[skjaeran]

ArtK78, on Sep 5 2007, 11:48 PM, said:

ralph23, on Sep 5 2007, 03:59 PM, said:

skaeran, on Sep 5 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

TRASH is an acronym for TRAnsger or SHape. It's a 1NT defence (can be used vs 2NT too), and shows either a 1-suiter in the suit transfered to or 55 in the next two suits. That means it's just the same as Suction or Yeslek as it's called in Norway.

Yes, but in ACBL-land, TRaSH isn't legal against natural NT Openings. It is (apparently) legal against both artificial 1 and 2♣ openings.

On the contrary, Ralph. TRaSH against a 1NT opening (and any other defense against a 1NT opening not allowed on the General Chart) is legal in the ACBL in events that permit Mid-Chart conventions, as TRaSH is a pre-alertable Mid-Chart convention.

The General Chart allows all defenses against 1NT openings which show at least one known suit (except that double and 2♣ do not require a known suit). If a conventional defense to a 1NT opening uses any other bid besides double and 2♣ which does not promise a known suit - such as TRaSH - it is a pre-alertable Mid-Chart convention.

In Norway no defence to 1NT is considered Brown Sticker. So anything is legal at all levels.

[skjaeran]

ralph23, on Sep 7 2007, 06:25 PM, said:

Seriously, is there any difference between TRaSH and Suction? Or are they just two different names for the same thing??

skaeran, on Sep 5 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

TRASH is an acronym for TRAnsfer or SHape. It's a 1NT defence (can be used vs 2NT too), and shows either a 1-suiter in the suit transfered to or 55 in the next two suits. That means it's just the same as Suction or Yeslek as it's called in Norway.

[Elianna]

ArtK78, on Sep 5 2007, 01:48 PM, said:

ralph23, on Sep 5 2007, 03:59 PM, said:

skaeran, on Sep 5 2007, 04:31 PM, said:

TRASH is an acronym for TRAnsger or SHape. It's a 1NT defence (can be used vs 2NT too), and shows either a 1-suiter in the suit transfered to or 55 in the next two suits. That means it's just the same as Suction or Yeslek as it's called in Norway.

Yes, but in ACBL-land, TRaSH isn't legal against natural NT Openings. It is (apparently) legal against both artificial 1 and 2♣ openings.

On the contrary, Ralph. TRaSH against a 1NT opening (and any other defense against a 1NT opening not allowed on the General Chart) is legal in the ACBL in events that permit Mid-Chart conventions, as TRaSH is a pre-alertable Mid-Chart convention.

The General Chart allows all defenses against 1NT openings which show at least one known suit (except that double and 2♣ do not require a known suit). If a conventional defense to a 1NT opening uses any other bid besides double and 2♣ which does not promise a known suit - such as TRaSH - it is a pre-alertable Mid-Chart convention.

I completely agree that according to the charts, Trash/suction is midchart. I'm just not so sure that it's pre-alertable. It definitely doesn't need a written defense.

At http://web2.acbl.org...nvchart2005.pdf , it's marked with an asterisk, which definitely means that no written defense is required, but I thought that it also doesn't require a pre-alert.

I don't play it, though, so I don't know for sure. I just don't remember ever being pre-alerted to Woolsey (another midchart defense to 1NT) at Nationals. Could be that no one played it, or that I had their card and was looking at it before they could tell me.

Also, in many West Coast districts, they specifically have stated that all defenses to 1NT have been deemed GCC.

[awm]

I had several people pre-alert at nationals "we play a 2♦ overcall of your 1NT showing one major." It does not require a suggested defense.

As Elianna pointed out, on the US west coast all defenses to notrump have been made general chart (weirdly, our own district representative voted against extending this rule to the nation as a whole). Since this makes Woolsey, Trash, etc. general chart it would not require a pre-alert.