[AceOfHeart]

should you open 3rd seat with this hand at a) favorable vul b)unfavorable vul c)all vul d) all non vul. at mp or imps?

---

.

How about this hand

---

?

or this hand?

---

?


What is the general rule for light openings on 3rd sit?

Thanks for your help MY first post here

[inquiry]

AceOfHeart, on Feb 4 2004, 10:54 AM, said:

should you open 3rd seat with this hand at a) favorable vul b)unfavorable vul c)all vul d) all non vul. at mp or imps?

Thanks for your help MY first post here

Welcome

---

I would not open light, simply because I am not sure a ♠ lead would be good for our side. Sometimes, I just pass, this is an occassion.

How about this hand

---

Not vul, at imps I will open 1♠. If partner makes a negative double, I have nice ♥ "support". At MP, I am again to worried about giving up a trick on a invited ♠ lead to open 1♠. Vul at imps, I am worried about getting too high if partner has 4 card ♠ support, he will bump me to 3♠ (even when weak, as he looks at LOTT alot). With two ACEs and the ♦Q (presumably then their suit), my hand is better on defense than offense. So I will take the chicken way out and pass.


or this hand?

---

?

I would open 1♠ in third seat at all conditions. This time I want a ♠ lead, and want to tell partner about it. Their most likely game contract is 3NT and perhaps a ♠ lead while I retain the ♥Ace is just what we need.

What is the general rule for light openings on 3rd sit?

1) against precision players, stretch to open light to take them out of their comfortable 1♣ auctions where possible.
2) Open light when you have a fair to good suit you want lead.

I would rather open 1♠ on the following hand than any of the ones you showed.

---

[Free]

I would open with all three hands when NV. The first two are similar, your ♦Q isnt worth very much, but even V I'd open 1♠ because almost everybody would. The third hand I'd open 1♠ in all vulnerabilities...

With hand 1 I'd even psychic open 1♦ I guess, chance is pretty big opps have some game (3NT probably), but that's not good advise in the Beginner/Intermediate forum...

[luis]

3 clear 1s openings in 3rd position.
At all vulnerabilities.

[mikestar]

I would not open the first hand 1♠. If NV I would open 2♠, if V I would pass.

How light you open in third seat is in a part detemined by how light you open in first seat. Lets assume you follow "Rule of 20" (HCP=length of your two longest suits>=20) for first seat openings. Then I would apply "Rule of 18" for third seat opening with the provision that a light hand (a) has a good feature, such as opening in a suit you want led, and ( isn't suitable for a preempt.


The other two hands are fine for 1♠ both count 19 and want a spade lead. Neither is is suitable for 2♠ because it may be our hand and we could miss a ♥ fit. This is less important when it is clearly their hand as is the case in had #1.

[lenze]

It would NEVER occur to me to open any of these hands in any position.( I'm from the old school). Although I might open the third one 2♠ at favorable vulnerablity

[the hog]

Agree with Luis, 1S in all seats at all vulnerabilities.

[inquiry]

A word of warning to the beginners reading this thread.

Opening light in third seat is something you willl need to do to win. Having said that, you should have a reason for doing so other than it being your turn to bid. Luis is a truely expert player, and his partner opens very light hands in first or second seat (he plays moscito). Ron (the hog) is also an excellent player whose partners also tend to open very light (and not surprisingly he also plays moscito). I am not sure what the current "lightest" is for a normal moscito opening bid is in forst or second seat, but it is something like 8 or 9 hcp. So on these hands they have both some protection in opening light (they will not catch their partner wiht a junky 12 count and have him/her leap somewhere silly).

Now for most of us non-moscito players, there are three good reasons to open light in third seat.

1) To protect partner who might have passed a fairly good hand (not a consideration of course for people who open 8, 9 and 10 pt hands, but something for us beginners to think about).

2) To suggest a line of defense (an opening lead) or a good suit to compete for the part score in.

3) To mess up their auction. It is harder to bid accuartely if the opponents (this is us) are stepping all over our auction.

Now both luis and ron will say, no doubt, even playing sayc or 2/1 they would open these hands third seat. But they trust their expeirence, and more importantly their partnters, not to get into too much trouble with these bids. But you will have to worry not only about your first bid, but also your second. What if it goes 1♠-dbl-2♣. or 1♠-pass-2♣ for that matter. Do you bid 2♥ do you pass, have you thought out what your auction should be and will your partner understand it?

Go ahead, experiment with these extremely on line third seat bids on line and see what works for you. On line the occassional total disaster will not be too painful (real world -1100 hurt so much more than on-line ones). But bear in mind, I think suggesting all of these as blanket third seat opening bids to beginners (the audience in this discussion group) is like handing kids a box of matches.

And while Ron said he would open in third seat all those hand, he passed this hand out on jan 18th from the third seat. I don't know what he uses to suggest this hand is worst than the the ones in this quiestion, but I would open this one 1♠ third seat. Maybe he opens extremely light or sound, but not inbetween?

Scoring: IMP

---

This is not to say I am against recommending the to beginners opening light. Take a look at the 12 hands played in the first think with fred match, where if you will permit me to call myself an expert, four experts opened light in third seat three out of 11 hands. In addition, you will see one hand where fred gitelman had an oppotunity to open light in third seat and didn't. I think those hands might be helpful to your study of htis topic.

http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...?showtopic=1273

Ben

[Free]

Ben, you forgot me and Richard (hrothgar) as moscito players But it's true, this system is designed to open light, because one of the theories behind it is that bidding keeps opps more out of the best contract, and might help in defensive play.

In 3rd hand, you can open a lot easier, and certainly when you have ♠s!

[inquiry]

Hi Free,

I didn't know how to classify yourr system and richard didn't post in this thread. But yes, you most definetly open light in the first seat. I started to add you to richard and luis, but since I thought you played a version of polish club, I didn't want to get into that. But before we preach to beginners to open for the express purpose of disrupting the opponents (first or 3rd chair), maybe they should learn a little bit more about the traditional use of third seat light bids, and when the odds are slanted in your favor for using them.

Ben

[Free]

Ofcourse, I'd never advise a beginner to start learning moscito... And precision like systems are normally a 2nd or 3rd system beginners learn (if they ever). In natural systems opening light in 3rd hand is very important imo. The big advantage is that partner already passed and normally wont bid crazy.

[the hog]

Now both luis and ron will say, no doubt, even playing sayc or 2/1 they would open these hands third seat.

Fair comment, Ben, and I should also point out I don't play Moscito with current partner - we play Polish standard - similar to 2/1. We do play Drury, which gives a modicum of safety to opening these hands as well.

♠ K9864
♥ T72
♦ T5
♣ AJ9

With re to above, - I would open this in third seat playing ftf. I tend to not psyche or open very light in non serious practice matches on bbo, particularly if we are playing what seem to be pleasant opponents. Too many people get stroppy and it does not seem worth it to upset people.

Ron

[AceOfHeart]

Thanks everyone for your help:)

[luis]

Of course I was referring to SAYC or 2/1 with my comment. I tend to forget Moscito when answering this kind of questions because the player who asked is interested in a SAYC or 2/1 point of view, not in what you would have done playing some exotic system.

So yes in 3rd position the 3 hands are a clear 1s opening to me.
I agree with Ben's principles for a 3rd hand opening, the most important rule is not to punish your pd for a light 3rd hand opening, the usual punishment is doubling the opponents in a contract they make with some overtricks based in "values" pd should have had for his opening bid. If your pd knows you open light then when he doubles you know you are entitled to have what you have and can play the defense relaxed.
In average what you lose for not doubling some contracts because pd may have a light hand is compensated by the competitive advantage you have in the bidding once you open before your opponents.

[EricK]

IMO agreeing to open some of these hands (the first one in the original post and the one in Ben's post) and then playing Drury to avoid getting too high, or not doubling opps when you normally would opposite a first seat opener is fielding a psyche and is unethical.

At the very least you should alert all your 3rd seat openers and give a clear description of the actual minimum values you might hold.

If on the other hand partner is going to bid the same way he would over a first seat 1S opener you have less of an ethical problem.

I realise my opinion is a minority one.

I think the second and third hands in the original post are pretty close to opening bids anyway so opening them isn't a psyche.

Eric

[the hog]

EricK, a psyche is a gross misstatement of values. I would hardly call opening any of these hands a gross misstatement.

[Trpltrbl]

I open all 3 hands 1 in all situations. I never preempt with 2 Aces, and my hand isn't that bad and if I got caught speeding for once, big deal. Will do it again next time.

Mike

[EricK]

The_Hog, on Feb 6 2004, 11:31 AM, said:

EricK, a psyche is a gross misstatement of values. I would hardly call opening any of these hands a gross misstatement.

Of the hands mentioned in the thread, I would say that opening ♠Axxxx ♥Axxx ♦xx ♣xx is a gross mis-statement of values, and ♠Kxxxx ♥Txx ♦Tx ♣AJx is even more so.

Of course, the laws being so vague (what does gross mean anyway?!) doesn't make sorting out these arguments very easy!

Eric

[lenze]

For those who would open the hands in this tread in all situations, please, if you ever pass through Montana, PM me. I will arrange a seat for you at our monthly 10 cents a point game. We are ALWAYS looking for dead money.

[the hog]

No problems Lenze, on the condition that I can play with my current partner, Luis or Ben, iow anyone who can cope with light openings.

Axxxx ♥Axxx ♦xx ♣xx
Wow EricK! Here you have 8 losers, 5-4 in the Majors and 4 controls and you say this is "a gross misstatement of values". I never picked you for a Roth Stoner

As a matter of interest, here is a hand from the semi finals of the recent National Open Teams in Canberra. Bourke vs Indonesia.

Nth opened this
KTxxxx
xxx
x
AQx
with 1S. The reporter said that he felt the Nth hand was more a 2S opening. Ron Klinger - well known expert and author made the tongue in cheek comment "Only from a Seniors point of view". They got to 4H with Sth holding:
Ax
Kxxxx
Axxx
xx
and made it with AJT9 of H offside. I guess "if you bid em up you have to play em up."