[MarceldB]

gwnn, on Sep 6 2007, 11:41 AM, said:

A 12-1-0-0 comes up every 8578 years if you play 100 hands a day. But I think I messed up the calculations somewhere, it really has to be less often. I don't mean this to criticize your system mate, don't get me wrong.

No, not at all.
The example I gave is of course a curiosity and will never happen. But if...then it can be handled, without any problem. As you will understand the seldom 9+c suiters handling is an extention of the 8-carders treatment. Freebids were namely available on a safe level.

ALL the 8221, 8311 and 8320's, in spite of the 8c-suit and the singl./void, are always known with the 4♣ bid, that means:
- the exact distribution is known
- min or max within the pointrange (pointranges can be: 7-11, 5-10 or 12-15)

4♦ = End Signal (exception: 8c=♦ ànd a minimum)
Rest = Slam investigation and defines the trumpsuit

In the framework of this thread, this 4♣ bid answers to the description of a symmetrical bid, with the advantage not disturbing f.e. a 7330 and it's handling in the original symmetric relay system as I have seen.

[Gerben42]

I DO play relays sometimes but never had much of a problem. I try to convey my shortnesses rather than lengths, i.e. sell 8221 as 7(32)1 with singleton in my singleton suit.

[mycroft]

Of course, it's (frequency * level * cost)...I have played a system that has 4 bids for exact specific shapes lower than three of opener's suit (by a passed hand) because level is low, cost of not doing it is minimal (no real meaning for the call otherwise), and the cost of not handling them is high (only hands that can make game opposite a minimum).

I am assuming from the comments posted (I play an asking-bid style, rather than a relay style) that the number of times not being able to differentiate between 7 and 8 was the difference between 5 and 6 or 6 and 7 isn't high enough for the cost of the misdescription, 13+ IMPs, to matter (except if you lose by 2, of course, but we can all find 2 IMPs that weren't system problems).

Michael.

[Impact]

Not sure whether it was traditional symmetric or an adaptation:-

respond as to Extreme shape: If relayer signed off w/o range/BCC, Step 1=EXTREME
8311 treated 6322
9211 7321 BUT show "2" as sing
9310 7330
8221 5332 if good suit (o/w 7321)
8320 6331 if good suit (o/w 7330)

6610 5521
7510 5431
8410 6421
7600 6511
7411 5422

which has worked well for us over 20+ years...on the rare occasion you hold the hand AND get a chance for an unobstructed auction.

regards

[akhare]

I echo the comments made by Free, Richard, Josh et all -- it simply doesn't make sense to dedicate any bids to 8+ card suits. For one thing, with such extreme distribution, it's unlikely that you will be able to contest a relay auction unmolested (read interference).

Also, I think that the recent trend is not to bother to with resolving the "32" in the 7321 shapes.

In practice, I don't think that I ever have had the chance to relay out (or response to a relay) a 8+ card suit in the thousands of hands I have played over the past few years.

[benlessard]

Ive got an easy solution for most of you.

Lets consider that you have X shapes you want to show.

You put them in frequency order and whatever numerical you want to used.

after that

a= +1
B= +2
C= +3

D= 1
E= 4
F =9.
G= 14


Lets say you want to show hand 18 and youre in 2D.



18 = 14+1+3

so you bid 2H wich is A--partner respond 2S wich is B now you bid 2NT = C followed by 3C wich is D. and now you bid 3S for G.


2H (A = +1) 2S ( relay
2NT (C = +3) 3C (D) relay
3S (G= 14)

A+C+G = 18


You only have to memorize you exact shape list.

for 2 suiter

5422
5431
5413
5440*
5521
5512
5530
5503
6421
6412
6430
6403
6511
6520
6502
7411
7420
7402

for single suiter it something like this

6331
6313
6133
7321* maybe 7222
7312
7231
7213
7132
7123
7330
7303
7033
8311
8131
8133
8??0
8?0?
80??

I don't rememebr exactly where we put the 8221 , probably with the 7321


For balanced hands

5332
5323
5233
6322
6232
6223
maybe 7222

It by far the most easy and efficient system for long list of shapes. However since no shape are showned in the first 3 spot the most common 5431 are a bit late. Also you have finish the entire sequence since the shape is encrypted. IMHO complex relay for 7+ or 65+ are unpractical with a too rare frequency.


So i much prefer a simpler variation. with only 2 switch

+1, and +2

A=+1
B=+2




C=1
D=3
E=6
F=9

1 = C
2= AC
3= D
4= AD
5= BD
6= E
7= AE
8= BE
9= F
10 =AF
11 = BF

Note that there is no touching letters like AB or BC because the relayer has to make a bid.


so AD is

A (2H) B (2S relay)
D (3C)