[han]

Mike, the reason people are considering an immediate call is that you would also pass and then bid 2H with xxx xx xxxx xxxx. Opener might not act again with extras and you might may a good game. Not saying that your choice is wrong, I'm just explaining why I chose 2H instead of pass.

[mike777]

I certainly agree that if you play very wide ranging one level bids as I do and you are both max for your bids here you can miss a game esp. a minimum hcp game. Of course you may overbid and go down also.

In any case if you pass with this responder hand the bidding may not be over.

[han]

I think you will miss quite a few games that way, I imagine that partner will usually pass your 2H with a 15-count. If not then you get too high too often.

And how about this: Axx KQJxx x Kxxx? That's a pretty good 6C there. Not easy to reach but if you pass first you'll play 2H.

(I have a dream of bidding 1H - (2D) - 2H - (p) - 3C - (p) - 4D (bluhmer?) etc.)

[mike777]

I agree I miss 6c on your 23 hcp example.
I agree partner will need to listen to the bidding and take a view over my pass and 2H rebid depending on his hand and the rest of the table bidding.

[han]

mike777, on Sep 2 2007, 08:00 PM, said:

I agree partner will need to listen to the bidding and take a view over my pass and 2H rebid depending on his hand and the rest of the table bidding.

If you meant this sentence to mean anything, I missed it.

[Echognome]

Hannie, on Sep 2 2007, 10:40 AM, said:

It seems to me that of Dbl, 2H and 3C, 2H is the best choice. I can see doubling if I had Hxx in spades but I won't do it with a small doubleton. 3C is gross, the fact that we likely don't have a diamond stopper makes forcing to game a huge overbid.

The available lies after passing are worse than a direct 2H imo.

So bidding your longest suit is gross, yet supporting with a 2 bagger is not. We don't have a diamond stop, I can see that too. And when partner raises to the heart game and trumps are 5-1, that's going to be fun too!

I don't object to 2♥ that much. You've got to make some call. I think calling bidding your longest suit gross, well call me crazy then.

[han]

I think forcing to game is gross and you know I meant that.

[jdonn]

Wow, when I created this I almost didn't even include double as a choice, then I tossed it in at the last second just to be comprehensive and make sure no one would complain about a lack of choices. I'm also surprised there are no votes for 2NT - I completely hate it, I just thought some people might do it.

[han]

So what happened Josh, and what is your opinion?

Just discussed pass followed by 3D with Arend. If it is a possible sequence then it should probably show a hand like this.

[jdonn]

I would and did pass, and I don't like 2♥ at all but I know a lot of people would do it. And yeah I think following with 3♦ after partner reopens with double or 2♥ 'should' show this hand. If partner passes it out I'm probably quite happy and expect +200 or +300 vs having no game most of the time, though having game is possible. Partner actually reopened with 2♥, and I bid 4♥ since I was with Aaron (don't want to make him field a bid like 3♦), which made easily though 3NT is a bit better.

To me, you either just overbid 3♣ or you don't.

[Foxx]

jdonn, on Sep 3 2007, 02:40 AM, said:

I'm also surprised there are no votes for 2NT - I completely hate it, I just thought some people might do it.

There is one now.

Not that I like it or that I think it will solve the problem. I hate everything. There should have been a choice for abstain. If I got this problem at the table then I would be sick. But seeing as I'm the only vote for my choice, I must be a sick animal anyway.

On a side note, I'd like to see Hannie's example in Challenge the Champs. East dealer; South bids diamonds; both sides vul. Maybe 10% of the expert pairs in the world would reach the club slam. I'd like to see how Meckstroth & Rodwell do it.

[jdonn]

Foxx, on Sep 3 2007, 02:50 AM, said:

jdonn, on Sep 3 2007, 02:40 AM, said:

I'm also surprised there are no votes for 2NT - I completely hate it, I just thought some people might do it.

There is one now.

Not that I like it or that I think it will solve the problem. I hate everything. There should have been a choice for abstain. If I got this problem at the table then I would be sick. But seeing as I'm the only vote for my choice, I must be a sick animal anyway.

On a side note, I'd like to see Hannie's example in Challenge the Champs. East dealer; South bids diamonds; both sides vul. Maybe 10% of the expert pairs in the world would reach the club slam. I'd like to see how Meckstroth & Rodwell do it.

I don't really think any would reach it after 2♥ or almost none, but a lot would if this hand started with 3♣.

[SchTsch]

I don't like pass with healthy 10 points.

So for me options are 2♥, 3♣ and double.
2♥ is a slight underbid with some shape misinformation.
3♣ is a slight overbid with correct shape information.
Double seems the most flexible bid, I suppose partner shouldn't jump to 4♠.

So i'll usually double. 3♣ on a good day.

[gwnn]

Lebensohl is your friend (apparently only Haralds? ), just pass.

[helene_t]

gwnn, on Sep 3 2007, 02:36 PM, said:

Lebensohl is your friend (apparently only Haralds? ), just pass.

Yes, playing Lebensohl makes pass more attractive. I voted 3♣ though. 2♥ is maybe better. I don't see how dbl can be better than 2♥, and it could certainly be worse.

[SchTsch]

helene_t, on Sep 3 2007, 08:01 AM, said:

I don't see how dbl can be better than 2♥, and it could certainly be worse.

On the other hand, I don't see how double can be worse than 2♥, and it could certainly be better.

[ulven]

I'm a passer as well. Bidding runs serious risk of getting overboard.
To prove I'm a passer, I'll give a hand from a couple of weeks ago. We played a practise match against the South African team for Shanghai.

All vul.

1S - (2H) - ?

-
Kxx
KT97xx
KQ8x

I actually passed, as did my counterpart at the other table.

How did this end?

North reopened with X and we both responded 3H. After 4C I decided we'd never find out if slam is good (depends on H location) and just raised to 5C. Doubled on the way out and I redoubled. Other table continued 4H after 4C and rested in 5C after 4S.

Contract made.

[SchTsch]

ulven, on Sep 3 2007, 08:59 AM, said:

To prove I'm a passer, I'll give a hand from a couple of weeks ago.

There is a big difference between this two hands.
There you had a void in partners suit and here you have Ax. That makes the situation totally different.

[whereagles]

Hannie, on Sep 2 2007, 06:40 PM, said:

3C is gross

It's gross only if you're too hcp-dogmatic to realize it may solve all your problems for the price of a slight overbid. Heck, if pard has a max with singleton diamond, your hand might even be worth a SLAM TRY.

[han]

OK, I guess I am hcp-dogmatic sycophant because I still think it is a gross overbid. Xxxx in their suit is not a reason to upgrade imo.

I realized later that at the table I would probably not consider anything but pass and pass was also my first thought when reading the hand. However, when thinking carefully about all the options I still think that there is a lot to be said for a direct 2H. Pass followed by 2H (over partner's likely double) seems just too pessimistic, while the delayed 3D risks getting too high too often.