[Orla]

Every so often a new one comes up. Here is my latest one!!!

I was holding:
♠ K Q 6 4
♥ A T 8 4
♦ 7 2
♣ Q J 4

P was holding:
♠ J 9 8
♥ J 9 7
♦ A Q J 9
♣ A K T

I open 1♣ P bids 1♦. After my 1♥ rebid, P jump bids to 2NT. So what does 2NT mean?

I understood it to be 10-12pts, inviting me to bid 3NT..

After playing the hand and leaving without a word, someone told me that it was game forcing.

I asked a pal and he told me that 2NT after my first bid is 11-12 pts, but not if he jumps after he had made a suit bid.

If this is so, it is a new one to me.

Why not bid 3NT immediately? Why bid 1♦? Why 2NT after 1♦?

rla

[jtfanclub]

I have always played it as 11-12. I'm not sure why your partner was being cute- that's a pretty clear 3NT bid he has...it has not interest in slam across a 12-14 opener anyways.

If this isn't standard, I'd like to know myself.

[Walddk]

I am in your camp, Orla. 2NT is invitational. I will even claim that it's the standard agreement.

Roland

[ulven]

Walddk, on Aug 21 2007, 09:23 AM, said:

I am in your camp, Orla. 2NT is invitational. I will even claim that it's the standard agreement.

So will I.

[pdmunro]

I play the jump to 2NT as 11-12. It seems most on BBO do.

But I think you will find many references to it being something like 13-15, except when the player has previously passed, in which case it is then (10)11-12:

Pavlicek: http://www.rpbridge.net/1t41.htm
ACBL: http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf
Wayne Burrows: http://bridgelessonssayc.blogspot.com/2007...-1-opening.html
Fred: Bridge Base Standard (Basic)

My bet is that the simpler idea of it always being 11-12 will win out in the end. :-)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

playing standard methods, the jump is inv.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

I asked a pal and he told me that 2NT after my first bid is 11-12 pts, but not if he jumps after he had made a suit bid.

If anything his statement is backwards.

Anyway, the answer is that it depends on partnership agreement for both cases.

Old-fashioned standard: 2nd round jumps by responder are game forcing. Some people still prefer to play this way for various reasons, like Pavlicek.

Modern standard: 2nd round jumps invitational

SAYC, officially according to document: invitational.

Direct jump to 2nt over the opening:

Old fashioned standard: game forcing

Modern standard: who knows, probably invitational. (Won by slim margin in Bridge World poll)

SAYC, officially: game forcing

I prefer the old school GF treatments for various reasons but realize it's not necessarily the modern assumption & try to discuss it with partners beforehand.

[1eyedjack]

pdmunro, on Aug 21 2007, 03:54 PM, said:

I play the jump to 2NT as 11-12. It seems most on BBO do.

But I think you will find many references to it being something like 13-15, except when the player has previously passed, in which case it is then (10)11-12:

Pavlicek: http://www.rpbridge.net/1t41.htm
ACBL: http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf
Wayne Burrows: http://bridgelessonssayc.blogspot.com/2007...-1-opening.html
Fred: Bridge Base Standard (Basic)

My bet is that the simpler idea of it always being 11-12 will win out in the end. :-)

I have certainly come across an immediate 2NT response as showing 13-15 (not sure of the logic, but that was the original SAYC standard I think). But here we are talking about a delayed 2NT bid (via initial new suit). I have never encoutered that being described as 13-15 before. Sorry, I have not bothered to check your links

[vuroth]

Stephen Tu, on Aug 21 2007, 10:28 AM, said:

Direct jump to 2nt over the opening:

SAYC, officially: game forcing

Every time I see that in SAYC, I blink. It just seems counter-intuitive to me for some reason. I guess with invitational hands, I can make a forcing suit bid on the way to 2NT.

Still, I wonder why SAYC shows 1m-2NT as 13-15 and 1m-3NT as 16-18. Is it to help keep 5m open, in the absence of inverted minors? Are the narrow ranges well-suited to exploring 3NT vs 6NT?

If I wasn't paying attention at the table, I'm sure I'd interpret it as a limit raise style invitational bid for NT.

V

[skjaeran]

ulven, on Aug 21 2007, 04:27 PM, said:

Walddk, on Aug 21 2007, 09:23 AM, said:

I am in your camp, Orla. 2NT is invitational. I will even claim that it's the standard agreement.

So will I.

Me too.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Still, I wonder why SAYC shows 1m-2NT as 13-15 and 1m-3NT as 16-18. Is it to help keep 5m open, in the absence of inverted minors? Are the narrow ranges well-suited to exploring 3NT vs 6NT?

3nt is 16-17 in SAYC. Why? Because that's just what the standard in SA had been for a long time, since days of Goren, and it wasn't changed at the time SAYC was first published. If SAYC were invented today, maybe they'd make it invitational. 2nt invitational is a modern thing, influenced by playing 2/1 GF (thus having no temporizing call of 2c over 1d with invitational hands), and also Acol style limit bids leaking over.

What are some of the advantages of 2nt = 13-15 GF?
-- Sometimes 3nt isn't the best spot! Partner might have a shapely hand, if you can pinpoint shortness in opener's hand across from a shaky major stopper, you can occasionally avoid a no-play 3nt in favor of a 4-3 major fit or 5m, sometimes even 6m. The 3 level is valuable for exploration.

--16-17 is a rather awkward range to handle. You have extras & might have slam if partner also has extras. But you don't really want to get beyond 3nt if partner has a minimum, as suits might not break/hooks might fail etc. & going down 1 in 4nt is a very high cost. Temporizing with a suit bid, your only next plausible bid often has to be 3nt (esp. if playing 2nd round 2nt invitational), & partner will have to play you for 13-15, slam could be missed.

--it gives you a good way to handle 18-19; bid 4nt over partner's frequent 3nt reply to 2nt.

[Quantumcat]

It has to be 10-12 or so: 1NT is 6-9, if 2NT was 13-15 where would 10-12 go? I haven't read the complete topic but I can't see any logic against it. If he had the hand he did but with 10-12 points and 2NT was 13-15, he'd have to bid 2C wouldn't he? That doesn't describe his hand very well!

[ralph23]

Quantumcat, on Aug 21 2007, 07:36 PM, said:

It has to be 10-12 or so: 1NT is 6-9, if 2NT was 13-15 where would 10-12 go?

Yep, this is why the modern method of a-good-10/11 to 12 has become so popular.

As aptly described in detail by Stephen, the "old" method was a jump by responder to 2nt (1st or 2nd round) was GF and showed approx. 13-15. You will run across a number of people who (still) play this way.

I don't know the numbers but my anecdotal experience is, that most people in BBO seem to play 1x - 2nt as invitational, showing 11-12.

We play:

Jump to 2nt = 11-12, no 4 card major
Jump to 3nt = 13-15, no 4 card major
16+ (and no 4 card major): We play over a minor opening that a jump shift in the other minor artificially shows this hand (basically, a responding hand that in the "old" style would have bid 3nt and that isn't suitable for an inverted minor raise)

All this stuff is a matter of partnership agreement.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

It has to be 10-12 or so: 1NT is 6-9, if 2NT was 13-15 where would 10-12 go?

If one plays a jump to 2nt as GF, then you define 4th suit followed by 2nt as 10-12.

[neilkaz]

In SAYC the immediate jump to 2NT is GF and your PD showed an invite by jumping to 2NT on the second round.

[Orla]

neilkaz, on Aug 23 2007, 01:55 AM, said:

In SAYC the immediate jump to 2NT is GF and your PD showed an invite by jumping to 2NT on the second round.

Not 100% sure I understand this.

"An immediate jump to 2NT is game forcing."
How many points would this hand have? Is it game forcing in NT? What is my response?
I have a 12-point opener, do I bid 3NT?
What do I bid if I have an 18HCP opener? Do I have to guess what s/he is forcing me with?
If my partner had enough points combined with a minimum opener, would it not be s/he to bid game rather than "force" me to?

Ditto on the "invite" 2NT.

Is not a bid of No Trumps a limit bid - whether opening or responding? Would it have different parameters if you bid a suit first?

As far as I have been playing: If P opens and I have 13+pts, if I have a suit, I will bid it. If P shows no interest in the suit, my next bid will be 3NT - because the maths says 12 + 13 = 25 = game.

rla

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

"An immediate jump to 2NT is game forcing."

1m-p-2nt, forcing to 3nt at least in SAYC. Many people play this invitational, not forcing by agreement but that is not SAYC.

Quote

How many points would this hand have? Is it game forcing in NT? What is my response?
I have a 12-point opener, do I bid 3NT?

It is showing 13-15 pts typically (occasionally 18-19 planning to rebid 4nt), & a balanced hand without a 4 cd major. Opener with a min 12 pt balanced hand will just bid 3nt. If opener is unbalanced, with a major suit singleton/void, he should rebid a side suit or his first suit to see if partner can show strength opposite the shortness by bidding the suit or rebidding 3nt with both majors well-stopped. If he can't, then perhaps 5m or 4M will be better, since the opponents have a 9+ cd fit there & you typically don't want to play in 3nt when one of your suits is JTx opposite x or Qxx opposite x. With little wastage opposite the shortness sometimes you even have slam in the suit when 3nt goes down.

Quote

What do I bid if I have an 18HCP opener? Do I have to guess what s/he is forcing me with?

If you have 18 pts balanced, then you can just invite slam by bidding 4nt over 2nt.

Quote

If my partner had enough points combined with a minimum opener, would it not be s/he to bid game rather than "force" me to?

Sometimes best to keep bidding low to look for a better game. Sure, maybe 90% of the time opener just bids 3nt, so 1m-2nt-3nt is not really any improvement over 1m-3nt. But occasionally you find that 3nt is not really the best spot. Also, it gives you something intelligent to do as responder with 16-17 bal (direct 3nt) or 18-19 bal (2nt followed by 4nt). If a direct 3nt was 13-15, & 2nt was 10-12, with these other hands you'd have to do a lot of contortions to show that range.

Quote

Ditto on the "invite" 2NT.

On the invitational 2nt, only real decision is bid game or not, since it's NF. If not bidding game sometimes you rebid a minor to improve the partial.

Quote

Is not a bid of No Trumps a limit bid - whether opening or responding? Would it have different parameters if you bid a suit first?

Notrumps is just quantitative bidding if both players are balanced. If one player is unbalanced, perhaps you don't belong in 3nt. If you can establish a GF below 3nt, then sometimes you can do good things like avoid 3nt when you have suit x opposite Jxx & opponents take first 5 tricks, but go ahead & play it with x opposite KQT.

[ralph23]

"An immediate jump to 2NT is game forcing."
How many points would this hand have?

*IF* you decide to play this way, then the jump shows 13-15 with no 4+ card major.

Is it game forcing in NT?

Not necessarily. You are captain once p bids the natural NT. Maybe you have 8 clubs and a ♠ void... you decide.

What is my response?
I have a 12-point opener, do I bid 3NT?

Probably. What else comes to mind?

What do I bid if I have an 18HCP opener? Do I have to guess what s/he is forcing me with?

If you wanted to bid 4nt quantitative, you could. Partner has described his/her hand and made you captain. Partner can pass 4nt quant. or raise it to 6, depending on his/her point count/shape.

If my partner had enough points combined with a minimum opener, would it not be s/he to bid game rather than "force" me to?

That's why a lot of people, like most responding here, play that 2nt by responder is a NF bid, showing 11-12 with no 4 card major. Either way is reasonable. The NF response is more "modern" but you will find people who like to play 2nt response is 13-15. It's up to the partnership to agree.

Ditto on the "invite" 2NT.

Is not a bid of No Trumps a limit bid - whether opening or responding?

As long as it's natural, yes.

As far as I have been playing: If P opens and I have 13+pts, if I have a suit, I will bid it. If P shows no interest in the suit, my next bid will be 3NT - because the maths says 12 + 13 = 25 = game.

Well .... hmmmm.... that's a bit simplistic! You always have a "suit" since you must have at least one 4-card suit. Don't you sometimes respond 2nt or 3nt to partner's one-of-a-minor opening??

And, Don't you ever bid
North South (you)
1♦ 1♥
1♠ 2♣

??? Or similar? As long as you keep making forcing bids with your 13+ points, you need not just jump to game. You might miss a slam!

[Orla]

ralph23, on Aug 23 2007, 03:53 AM, said:

*IF* you decide to play this way, then the jump shows 13-15 with no 4+ card major.

As is often the case, this was a pick-up partner. We played one hand .. this one. He left.

With all the amount of information you want to impart, there is just not enough room in one's bidding profile to say: "A jump bid of 2NT = ??"

In future I will continue to hold the 2NT bid as 11-12HCP and decline/accept the "invite/game force" or whatever you call it, as I deem fit. If I incur the wrath...

rla

[pdmunro]

Some nice clear explanations Stephen Tu. Very interesting. Better than any text I have read.

But I think Orla's decision to go with the Jump to 2NT as 11-12 is the best for pick-up games. Absent prior discussion, it causes less grief to go with what the majority play.

Even when I was playing with a regular partner in our local clubs, we had settled on the J to 2NT as 11-12. The longer we played together the more we simplified our system. (Strange, but true.) I think it reduced the misunderstandings. Plus the bidding was quicker, leaving more time to tell a few jokes. :-)