[Badmonster]

With a weak nt do you have a more stringent criteria for shape than with a strong?

[helene_t]

The short answer is no.

The long answer is that it depends on style. Some considerations could be (you don't have to agree with this, though):

With a 12-14 2425 you "must" open a weak NT unless the clubs are good enough to bid twice. With a 2425 16-count you may also have the option of reversing.

OTOH with a 5332 16-count you "must" open a strong 1NT. With a 5332 12-14 count you can open 1♠ and pass responder's 1NT.

[gwnn]

Usually people open weak NT on more distributions than strong NT. This is because strong NT is a mainly constructive tool and weak NT is partly preemptive/destructive.

[Free]

I've been playing weak 1NT with any 4333, any 4432, any 5332, any 4441 and all 5422's except with both Majors. Works for me

We've excluded the 6m322 hands because we usually open 2m (constructive) with these. We've noticed this works better than opening 1NT...

So I would definetely say no, rather the opposite!

[MickyB]

Yes, I expect weak NTs to be more shape-specific than strong NTs.

Say you've got a 4225 and 13 points. If you open 1♣ and the auction gets competitive, you can happily pass (unless pard has made a forcing bid).

If you've got the same pattern but 16 points, there are many auctions in which it won't be clear whether to bid or pass, so it's worth opening suitable hands 1NT so you don't give yourself a guess later.

Likewise, I open 90+% of 5M332s in range with 1NT when playing strong NT (there's no way to show a flat 16 having opened 1M, and after 1M:1N, 2m:2M it's not clear whether to bid 2N or pass) but maybe 30% of such hands when playing a weak NT.

Also, strong hands are more likely to have honours in their doubletons, making the hand more suitable for declaring.

[hotShot]

Badmonster, on Aug 3 2007, 01:49 PM, said:

With a weak nt do you have a more stringent criteria for shape than with a strong?

It is a matter of style, but:

If you put more 12-14 HCP (semi)-balanced hands into your weak 1NT, your 1suit bids get stronger and better defined.

You will find that if you include 4441 hands into 1NT, your 1m bids will show 5+ cards or 15+ HCP.
If you allow bad 5card majors, your 1M bids will show 5 good cards in the major or extra strength.

[pclayton]

If Im playing a mini I'll get pretty loose. Any 6 minor 322 qualifies as do 5-4's with scattered honors. If I have a concentration of strength in the long suits I'll opt for a 1x opening.

With a 12-14 with my favorite pard, I'll be very strict with my patterns, unless I'm in 3rd seat. We play Keri Stayman which makes 2236 and 5-4's a problem, since you cant show those patterns easily.

[pbleighton]

Quote

I've been playing weak 1NT with any 4333, any 4432, any 5332, any 4441 and all 5422's except with both Majors. Works for me 

We've excluded the 6m322 hands because we usually open 2m (constructive) with these. We've noticed this works better than opening 1NT...

So I would definetely say no, rather the opposite!

Agree, except no 4441s in ACBL land

Peter

[awm]

Including lots of shapes in the 1NT bid makes it harder to find your side's best contract. In particular:

(1) Partner might sign off in your singleton suit when you are 4441. How likely is this to be a good spot?

(2) You might land in 3NT with a suit wide open. This is always possible of course, but it's more likely when opener has a singleton than a doubleton, and more likely when opener has two doubletons than one.

(3) You might miss a game based on a 4-4 (or 5-4) major fit when partner is too weak to bid over 1NT. This is always possible, but happens more often when opener's hand can include a singleton or two doubletons or a five-card major (all of which make the hand dramatically rise in value given a suit fit).

All these things are more of an issue though, when the hand "belongs" to your side. It seems more favorable to open off-shape 1NT with a weak notrump, because more often it isn't your hand, and you disrupt the opponents' constructive bidding (harder for them to find the best spot). Combined with taking most minimum hands out of your one-level openings and the fact that most opponents don't know what to do over a weak notrump opening, you may well break even (or come out ahead) by opening a weak notrump with 4225 and 4441 type patterns.

[cherdano]

Long ago when we looked at Bridgebrowser results for opening 1N with a 5-card major they showed that it was a winner in the auction 1N-3N, doing fine in other constructive game auctions, but a big loser in the auction 1N P P P. While the samples may not have been big enough to make this statistically significant, this seemed very logical to me. Missing the 5-3 fit is a bigger problem when you have 20 hcp combined than when you have 26-30 hcp combined.

Wouldn't this suggest that opening a weak NT with a 5-card major should more often be a loser, as the auction 1N PPP will be more frequent?

[awm]

cherdano, on Aug 3 2007, 03:13 PM, said:

Long ago when we looked at Bridgebrowser results for opening 1N with a 5-card major they showed that it was a winner in the auction 1N-3N, doing fine in other constructive game auctions, but a big loser in the auction 1N P P P. While the samples may not have been big enough to make this statistically significant, this seemed very logical to me. Missing the 5-3 fit is a bigger problem when you have 20 hcp combined than when you have 26-30 hcp combined.

Wouldn't this suggest that opening a weak NT with a 5-card major should more often be a loser, as the auction 1N PPP will be more frequent?

This is both true and not true....

I agree that 1NT is usually an inferior partscore to the major suit. The problem is that the auction doesn't necessarily end in the major suit. In particular, opponents are more likely to find their fit over 1M than over 1NT and push the auction up. Also partner is more likely to make a limit raise on some hand that would pass 1NT and get us to 3M when 2M (or 1NT) is the limit of the hand.

I remember a recent hand where I opened a strong club and rebid 1NT with 3532 and 18 hcp. We missed a 5-3 heart fit that the other table found easily. Sure enough, hearts are better than notrump! We had 2♥ totally cold with very double-dummy defense needed to set 3♥, whereas 1NT required careful play to make seven tricks. Nonetheless, we won a bunch of imps on the board, when the opponents found a raise on partner's 5-count and got all the way to 4♥ failing. There is something to be said for keeping the auction low in 1NT!

[keylime]

Arend, I agree with your line of thought here - so much so that the balanced 5M332 handtypes have their own bids in Ultra. Then again I'm not much of a fan of 5M into a NT opening unless the suit is crappy and/or I have Gazzilli at my disposal (it's a style thing).

I would think that you can draw an extension to having 4-4-x-x shape in a weak NT being a possible disadvantage as well (this is a banned handtype for our 11-13 opening because of potential missing 4-4 fit) because of the inability to get to 2M on some hands.

[Gerben42]

Quote

With a weak nt do you have a more stringent criteria for shape than with a strong?

No, with a STRONG NT I have more stringent criteria. Unlike Free I am a bit skeptical about opening 1NT with 4441, I tend to PASS in Fantunes where you have no other bid for a hand like

AQxx
Kxxx
KTxx
x

[MickyB]

In Fantunes, off-shape weak no-trumps make sense. Can't see why people are so keen to open them off-shape otherwise (except 1st NV, when the gains from preempting are greater). It goes against all the advice I've seen printed here (England). In my experience, an off-shape weak no-trump will often leave you with a nasty guess - the opponents overcall in one of your doubletons, do you take another call now?

[han]

I would be less likely to open a weak 1NT with 5 spades than a strong 1NT. With a 12-13 count I won't have any tough decisions after opening 1S, yet with a 15-16 count I would have a guess after 1S-2S. So yes, I am less likely to open 1NT with a 5-card major when playing weak notrumps.

There are similar arguments for 6-card minors. With a 12-count you can basically always rebid 2m, yet with a 15-count your hand may be uncomfortably strong for 2m yet not suitable for 3m, so I'd be more likely to open 1NT.

So my answer is yes. By the way Deb, are you playing weak notrumps???

[MickyB]

Hannie, on Aug 6 2007, 12:42 PM, said:

I would be less likely to open a weak 1NT with 5 spades than a strong 1NT. With a 12-13 count I won't have any tough decisions after opening 1S, yet with a 15-16 count I would have a guess after 1S-2S. So yes, I am less likely to open 1NT with a 5-card major when playing weak notrumps.

Likewise with hearts - with 2533 I'd usually open 1NT, but with 35(23) I'd usually open 1♥ and raise 1♠ to 2♠.

[Badmonster]

Hannie, on Aug 6 2007, 06:42 AM, said:

So my answer is yes. By the way Deb, are you playing weak notrumps???

With some partners. And questions come up, like how balanced? Two doubletons? No singletons? No 8/5 hands... Well you know.

How it affects the walsh diamond hands. Things just come up. But I kinda like it so far. No big disasters yet.

[neilkaz]

Badmonster, on Aug 6 2007, 06:03 PM, said:

Hannie, on Aug 6 2007, 06:42 AM, said:

So my answer is yes. By the way Deb, are you playing weak notrumps???

With some partners. And questions come up, like how balanced? Two doubletons? No singletons? No 8/5 hands... Well you know.

How it affects the walsh diamond hands. Things just come up. But I kinda like it so far. No big disasters yet.

Carol and I had a pleasure playing against you and your PD's last night and with you and wish your weak NT the best of success.

.. neilkaz ..

[kes]

We play (in a forcing 1C / 4card major context) :

1NT with 10-12 HCP - semi-bal (may be 5422 , 6322) , no 4card Major , not 4333

Then : 2C Escape ("does not want to play 1NT") , no need for Stayman