[fred]

1eyedjack, on Aug 25 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

Is the listing of kibitzers supposed to dynamically update as the kibitzers join and leave? Or do you have to click on it to refresh?

At our table, a kibitzer sat in a vacant seat, and was still listed as kibitzer until I refreshed. I would prefer it to update automatically, but perhaps there are constrainsts in flash to prevent that.

The kibitzer list does not update dynamically.

There are no restrictions in Flash that prevent this - it is purely a matter of Uday and I choosing (for now at least) to not implement dynamic updates on this list.

It is not clear whether or not we will eventually implement this. That rates to depend, at least to some extent, on feedback we receive as to how big an inconvience it is to have a non-updating list.

The main advantage of non-updating lists is they require less network traffic. That makes life easier for our server (which leads to better performance for everyone and more people who can log in to BBO at the same time). Less traffic also means that disconnects rate to be fewer and further between.

I know some of you have had trouble with disconnects. Of course this will be an important issue for us to deal with at some point, but that may not happen in the near future (sorry). Our first priority remains getting all of the core BBO functionality in place - right now we are working on supporting all aspects of tournaments.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[fred]

Dwingo, on Aug 25 2007, 08:22 AM, said:

Friends list - The back ground Dark Green is OK. The font in blcak is not enough contrast and hence a strain on the eye. A lighter font like Grey should make it better. ( Grey may be a problem to show Friends who are "Away from Table")

How do we find out who is the Host of the Table?

I agree about the dark green - sorry.

At some point we are going to have an artist recommend color changes. For now all the colors you see belong to a "palette" that was supplied by an artist, but I was the one who decided which palette colors go where. I did not spend a lot of time trying to get the colors to look as ggod as possible (to me) since it is likely that any such choices will be changed by the artist.

Currently there is no way to find out who is the host of a table. I personally think it would be great if we could eliminate the host notion entirely in BBOTV, but not clear this will be possible.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[rona_]

I don't think I have seen this reported before. I can chat privately to my partner, while we are bidding and playing.

Rona

[1eyedjack]

fred, on Aug 25 2007, 05:02 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 25 2007, 03:53 PM, said:

Is the listing of kibitzers supposed to dynamically update as the kibitzers join and leave? Or do you have to click on it to refresh?

At our table, a kibitzer sat in a vacant seat, and was still listed as kibitzer until I refreshed.  I would prefer it to update automatically, but perhaps there are constrainsts in flash to prevent that.

The kibitzer list does not update dynamically.

There are no restrictions in Flash that prevent this - it is purely a matter of Uday and I choosing (for now at least) to not implement dynamic updates on this list.

It is not clear whether or not we will eventually implement this. That rates to depend, at least to some extent, on feedback we receive as to how big an inconvience it is to have a non-updating list.

For what it's worth, I personally place quite a high priority on dynamically updating the kibber list, I regard it is valuable information, and the fact that it can be made permanently visible is an improvement on the Windows client.

But I am of course just one voice. I have no idea how you would get a representative opinion from the customer base.

I was conscious of the overhead on network traffic, but since the Windows client gets updated dynamically I had assumed that this was not critical. Totally outside my field, however, so I bow to the expertise of others. Instinctively, however, if past history is anything to go by, I would expect the capacity of the net to absorb traffic to grow at a faster rate than the rate of growth of the BBO userbase. Whether it grows faster than the total stress on the net I would not know, and perhaps that is a more pertinent question.

I will say however that at the outset you expressed a hope that this interface would be more user friendly for a population of potential "customers" who are so computer illiterate that they baulk at the prospect of installing the Windows client software. Such customers would, I feel, be likely to assume that if a pane shows a list of kibitzers then they would expect it to be current.

[1eyedjack]

fred, on Aug 25 2007, 05:08 PM, said:

I personally think it would be great if we could eliminate the host notion entirely in BBOTV

Can you expand on this? I thought that the ability to personalise the table settings is a benefit of considerable value. The fact that so many of the available options are popularly used suggestst that I am not alone. I cannot imagine how this can be possible without it being under the control of one individual.

I have to say also, however, that I am usually not particularly interested to know who is the table host, beyond the question of whether or not it is me. Being able to review the table settings that the host (whoever that may be) has set is of value, however.

[fred]

1eyedjack, on Aug 25 2007, 09:19 PM, said:

fred, on Aug 25 2007, 05:08 PM, said:

I personally think it would be great if we could eliminate the host notion entirely in BBOTV

Can you expand on this? I thought that the ability to personalise the table settings is a benefit of considerable value. The fact that so many of the available options are popularly used suggestst that I am not alone. I cannot imagine how this can be possible without it being under the control of one individual.

I have to say also, however, that I am usually not particularly interested to know who is the table host, beyond the question of whether or not it is me. Being able to review the table settings that the host (whoever that may be) has set is of value, however.

You are right that a table host has a lot of powers. If we can eliminate the need for any one player to have these powers, then there is no need for a table host.

For example, consider the host's ability to boot a player.

It could be argued that there are 3 reasons a table host might want to boot a player:

1) He has a bad connection
2) For social reasons
3) For bridge reasons

Perhaps the software can be designed to take care of 1).

It could be argued that giving a player the ability for boot for reason 2) does more harm than good.

And 3) is not acceptable according to our rules.

If you buy all that, then it could be argued that the host's ability to boot a player can be eliminated.

If we can do the same thing for all of the other key powers that a table host has (ie eliminated them through changes in software design and/or site policies), then there won't be a need for table hosts anymore.

I agree with you that it is a big if.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[mrdct]

fred, on Aug 25 2007, 09:14 AM, said:

Currently, if a flag for a particular country is not defined, an Olympic flag is used. That is what you are seeing for both Macau and Switzerland. As of now only about 20 flags are defined - you will see an Olympic flag for all other countries.

The "Olympic" flag you are using in BBOTV is a specifically modified version of the Olympic flag for use by Chinese Taipei only in international sporting competition.

It includes the blue and white "sun" emblem that sits above the Olympic rings which is a symbol of Chinese Taipei.

As suggested several times before, I think the country "Other" should carry a blank flag, a BBO flag or a WBF flag and we should keep the UN and IOC out of it.

[ulven]

1eyedjack, on Aug 25 2007, 04:14 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I personally place quite a high priority on dynamically updating the kibber list, I regard it is valuable information, and the fact that it can be made permanently visible is an improvement on the Windows client.

I share this view.

EDIT: I can't find the number of kibs, in summarized form. That I'd like. I also think that the boxes in the listing should be smaller so more can fit, cutting down on potential scrolling.

[cherdano]

ulven, on Aug 26 2007, 12:06 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 25 2007, 04:14 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I personally place quite a high priority on dynamically updating the kibber list, I regard it is valuable information, and the fact that it can be made permanently visible is an improvement on the Windows client.

I share this view.

It depends, when I am at a vugraph table with 2000+ kibitzers I don't care at all, but say I just sat down at a table with my partner I definitely want to know whether a kibitzer has just joined, to know whether what I am saying to the table will be private, to notice when a potential opponent that I asked to play joined, etc.

[1eyedjack]

fred, on Aug 26 2007, 12:09 AM, said:

If you buy all that, then it could be argued that the host's ability to boot a player can be eliminated.

If we can do the same thing for all of the other key powers that a table host has (ie eliminated them through changes in software design and/or site policies), then there won't be a need for table hosts anymore.

I agree with you that it is a big if.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

I buy that.

You would have to pay the price that many of the table settings would be uneditable once set. That is already the case in part: Having set an IMP table you cannot change to MP without closing the table and re-opening. However, currently you can enable/disable kibitzer chat to tables, permission required to kibitz, permission required to play etc, and these are settings that I find does get changed in practice fairly regularly after the table has been set. I do not personally think it would be any great loss to have to commit to these settings once and for all.

[1eyedjack]

cherdano, on Aug 26 2007, 07:13 AM, said:

ulven, on Aug 26 2007, 12:06 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on Aug 25 2007, 04:14 PM, said:

For what it's worth, I personally place quite a high priority on dynamically updating the kibber list, I regard it is valuable information, and the fact that it can be made permanently visible is an improvement on the Windows client.

I share this view.

It depends, when I am at a vugraph table with 2000+ kibitzers I don't care at all, but say I just sat down at a table with my partner I definitely want to know whether a kibitzer has just joined, to know whether what I am saying to the table will be private, to notice when a potential opponent that I asked to play joined, etc.

Yes, listing kibitzers in viewgraph is futile (and possibly a significant net traffic overhead). Perhaps limit it to those with authority to speak to the room.

[skjaeran]

I tried to watch the Cayne match this evening (it's going on as I write this) on BBOTV. The match score never came up and I couldn't find boards played before I logged in in MyHands.

[fred]

skaeran, on Aug 26 2007, 08:53 PM, said:

I tried to watch the Cayne match this evening (it's going on as I write this) on BBOTV. The match score never came up and I couldn't find boards played before I logged in in MyHands.

Sorry - we have not implemented scores and movies for team games yet. I am guessing you will see that happen within the next couple of weeks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[Dwingo]

If pd sent a message to Table, click on that message, we are able to private chat with Partner. This needs to be disabled.

It will be nice, if we are able to click on Opp's ID and private chat to them, as the arrow keys for RHO and LHO are not there in this version.

[skjaeran]

fred, on Aug 27 2007, 01:06 AM, said:

skaeran, on Aug 26 2007, 08:53 PM, said:

I tried to watch the Cayne match this evening (it's going on as I write this) on BBOTV. The match score never came up and I couldn't find boards played before I logged in in MyHands.

Sorry - we have not implemented scores and movies for team games yet. I am guessing you will see that happen within the next couple of weeks.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Thanks Fred - I guessed it might be so. Because later I watched Arend and Hannie playing a IMPs at a table. Then I could see scores and earlier boards in MyHands too.

[awm]

I tried to invite a partner to a table and it immediately crashed his BBO (he was using windows client).

It also seems impossible to join an existing table, which makes it pretty hard to actually join a game with friends.

[uday]

You can't yet join-and-play at an existing table.

What's the id of the crashing partner? you can IM me ..

U

[1eyedjack]

I could be wrong about this - ignore if so.

If your security settings for some reason prohibit you from accessing BBO (despite that you have Flash 9 installed) then you get as far as the log on screen, then immediately on attempting to log in it comes up with a "connection lost" message, then it reverts to the log on screen, but if you then repeat the attempt you get a permanent message "attempting to connect". In either case it would be preferable to have a message "connection denied".

[FrancesHinden]

fred, on Aug 26 2007, 12:09 AM, said:

For example, consider the host's ability to boot a player.

It could be argued that there are 3 reasons a table host might want to boot a player:

1) He has a bad connection
2) For social reasons
3) For bridge reasons

Perhaps the software can be designed to take care of 1).

It could be argued that giving a player the ability for boot for reason 2) does more harm than good.

And 3) is not acceptable according to our rules.

If you buy all that, then it could be argued that the host's ability to boot a player can be eliminated.

You said it's a big "if", and I don't buy it.

Currently the only times I play on BBO are practice games with three specified friends/teammates. When I did this the first time, I set up a new table and reserved the seats at the table for my friends.

This worked fine.

Then one of my friends got disconnected. Immediately someone else sat in his ex-seat, and ignored my request to leave/explanation of why he should leave, and I had to boot him/her to allow the reconnected friend to rejoin.

Now, I could have got round this by adding "permission required to join table" when I set the table up, but it's wasn't obvious that when you reserve seats they doesn't stay reserved until you say differently e.g. over a disconnect.

The point of all this rambling is that although you might argue in an ideal world the ability to boot is not required, when you have inexperienced people using your software who don't realise exactly what's required when setting a table up (e.g. that 'reserved' seats don't persist) you aren't in an ideal world.

[barmar]

A better fix for that might be to make reservations persist by default, rather than retain the ability to boot.

However, it seems like you still need the idea of a host. Otherwise, who gets to change the seat reservation when the player it was originally reserved for decides to leave and you want to let someone else join? Would this necessitate starting a new table?

Personally, I don't see a problem with retaining the host idea. What I think confuses people is that the host changes when the host leaves the table, rather than just closing the table. I guess this makes sense if the host gets disconnected and you want to continue when he reconnects. But if the host leaves or logs out voluntarily, it should probably just close the table.