[mikegill]

Here is the full hand:

Scoring: MP

p p 1♦ 1♥
1N 2♥ 3♣ p
p 3♥ p p
X All pass

---

Should East be bidding 4m over 3h? +200 would have been 7/8 if 3H were going down, and -140 was a 1/8 if 3h hadn't been doubled, so clearly doubling was the right move if not bidding 4m or 3n. Clearly something needs to happen differently here, since E-W are doubling a cold 3H contract instead of bidding their making 3N or at least competing to 4m (5m is cold except for a spade lead, which may or may not happen from north). Obviously playing good/bad 2N would help, since West would show a good hand with 3m, and maybe East could bid 3n then (much tougher over 3c than over 3d). The 3h balance was after a tank too, so it was even harder for East not to take a swing. Thoughts?

[mike777]

mikegill, on Aug 6 2007, 08:40 PM, said:

Here is the full hand:

Scoring: MP

p p 1♦ 1♥
1N 2♥ 3♣ p
p  3♥ p  p
X  All pass

---

Should East be bidding 4m over 3h?  +200 would have been 7/8 if 3H were going down, and -140 was a 1/8 if 3h hadn't been doubled, so clearly doubling was the right move if not bidding 4m or 3n.  Clearly something needs to happen differently here, since E-W are doubling a cold 3H contract instead of bidding their making 3N or at least competing to 4m (5m is cold except for a spade lead, which may or may not happen from north).  Obviously playing good/bad 2N would help, since West would show a good hand with 3m, and maybe East could bid 3n then (much tougher over 3c than over 3d).  The 3h balance was after a tank too, so it was even harder for East not to take a swing.  Thoughts?

As usual prefer 3H not 2h. Get this hand off my chest in one bid
4hearts less than invite.

I think the hand as you present is very complicated but wonderful.
west shows stiff heart...5+d 4+ clubs and extras
east has a double fit........and stoppers in the majors.
wonderful hand......lots to discuss

[Robert]

Hi mikegill

The post clearly states no conventions used here. I clearly stated that I like to play good bad 2NT here.

Since joshs mentioned 2NT showing 6D and 4C 'in DC' and keylime also mentioned Good Bad 2NT, please feel free to compain about their posts since you complained about mine. Fair is fair.

I play double= 4 clubs(and a good hand) and a direct 3C bid shows both 5(+) clubs and a good hand since I 'do play' Good Bad 2NT.

If you do play 3m shows ??? I would like to see the results with both screens and a footstool present. I know that I can often tell the value of the 3m bid from the way that the hand was bid. But it is not legal as I understand the laws.

I abstained for answering the question based on the lack of methods. If you want me to make bricks without straw, do not blame me after the building falls down.

Regards,
Robert

[the hog]

Well Mike, you can complain about my post as well, because for me this is a classic g/b 2NT. I would pass partner's X.

[Apollo81]

I think it's funny that none of the people that said they play good bad 2NT here stated what they would bid if playing that. Clearly there is more than one option. If I was playing that here then I would bid 3♦, not 3♣.

[Robert]

Hi Apollo 81

I was one of the 2NT=Good Bad posters.

Simply avoid playing with random players without some decent methods, unless she is good looking and you are playing ftf. If you do not have good methods, ignore the results and simply go by guess and by gosh.

Third paragraph of my last post, "I play double=4 clubs(and a good hand and a direct 3Cs shows 5(+) and a good hand since I 'do play' Good Bad 2NT."

The one suit double seems strange to me after one partner suggested it, however, it does make sense after looking at the alternatives. Partner denies spades with his 1NT bid so...

Regards,
Robert

[awm]

I don't really like east's bidding on this hand.

First he passes 3♣. Of course, it's not clear whether 3♣ shows extras, but it could be extras. Even if opener has some nice 5-5 minors hand (say xx x AKxxx AQxxx as a typical minimum for 3♣) the odds of making a game are not bad, and opener can easily have more than this. With a super-max for the 1NT call (I agree with 1NT by the way, just think east's hand could hardly be better for it) it seems normal to try 3NT over 3♣.

Then the double of 3♥ is also strange. East has two defensive tricks (heart king, spade ace). The minor suit length may tend to reduce opener's tricks. Certainly if opener has real extras I'd expect to set, but if opener had real extras we were cold for game and just passed 3♣. If partner has some shapely hand with points in suits (but not real extra values) then 3♥ could easily make and we might still have been cold for game when we passed 3♣. In any case, I think double here should deliver three tricks (or at least 2.5 tricks), not two tricks with defense-reducing length in the minors.

[awm]

I perhaps have different ideas about what qualifies for an opening bid with 5-5 minors than most people. I've noticed that:

(1) Opening 1m makes it easier for opponents to bid, not harder, because an overcall shows less for most people than an opening.

(2) Opening 1m doesn't help as much in competition as one might think, because partner often can't raise directly when it's right (preferring a negative double, or just being afraid to raise a possible 3-card suit on 4).

(3) When you have both minors, the most likely game is 3NT. Having "extra shape" doesn't help you much in 3NT. So if you open some 5-5 ten count (say) you often end up in 3NT with no real fit and 22-23 high, failing. This is not true if you are 5-5 in the majors, since the most likely game is now 4M and the extra shape does help.

(4) Holding both minors, you can often bid 1NT/2NT after passing initially and show both suits. Certain two suiters including a major can be hard to show after passing initially.

So anyways, I don't open a lot of tens and elevens when I'm 5-5 in the minors, even though I'd always open these hands if I had 5-5 in the majors. So the given hand is really not far from a minimum for me.

[mikegill]

Isn't it normal for opener to bid 3c here on 5-4 minors hand (or 2N if you think that shows 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs)? Responder's 1N bid is very unlikely to hold 4 spades (in our style, anyway), so if opener is 2254, he knows the opponents have at a minimum 8 hearts and 8 spades. Responder might have some 33(34) hand and pass out 2h when cold for 3m. Again, here my style is generally that the hand short in their suit has more of a duty to act.

I actually was East on this and - I'm not so much defending my actions as trying to find out where my thinking went wrong. Here was my thought process as the hand went on. Well, partner is under some pressure to bid over 2H, so he doesn't really need to have a great hand (I think awm's style of opening 5-5 minors hands is pretty nonstandard). Actually if partner had bid 3d, I'm sure I would have tried 3n, because now I just need him to have AK of diamonds and a trick. Over 3C, 5-5 hands aren't so good for 3n, and it seems like I need AK diamonds plus 2 side tricks. I figure that bidding 3n because partner might have extras at matchpoints isn't so good, since minimum hands are more likely than hands with extras.

Once they bid 3H, I'm thinking "well, I sure think 3c is making, so I have to do something here." I thought it was very likely that 3h was going down, since my opponents were not subtle enough to be trying to get doubled, and thought it was a tossup whether we were making 4m. I knew this could be really bad if partner had 10-card in the minors, but I just don't know how likely it is that is what's happening. Certainly xx54 hands are much more likely than xx55 or xx64 hands, but partner might not bid on all xx54 hands, so maybe this is poor reasoning.

[awm]

It just seems sort of contradictory to pass 3♣ (when a good hand from partner makes 3NT) and then double 3♥ (when you need a good hand from partner to set). Does partner have a good hand or not? I don't think the opponents bidding 3♥ makes it more likely that partner has a good hand...

I don't think I would normally bid 3♣ (or 2NT) with a 5-4. This kind of bid is (at best) competing in an eight card fit over an eight card fit, and one or both fits could easily be seven cards, not to mention partner has advertised wastage in hearts. It's too hard for partner to guess what to do if I make the same call on a minimum 5-4 that I make on a 6-4 with extras. Partner is still there and can bid 3♦ with four, or double with extras, or 2NT with a competitive hand.