[ralph23]

♣♦♥♠

Scoring: IMP

A hand from BBO....

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Assuming you are NS and you play 2/1 and Jacoby 2nt (your favorite version thereof), how do you bid this hand ?

[TylerE]

p-p-1♥-p
1♠ - p - 2♠ - p
3♦ - p - 4♠ - AP

South hand is not an opener red vs white in 2/1 by my standards.

Axxxx
x
AQxxx
xx

Would be.

[cherdano]

1S 2N (4S, inv+) 3C (any min) 4S

[ralph23]

cherdano, on Aug 1 2007, 10:58 AM, said:

1S 2N (4S, inv+) 3C (any min) 4S

That's very interesting. So many people have different methods.

1. So, you don't play J2N as a game-forcing raise, but only as inv+ ? I admit to never having heard of that.

2. If 3♣ by opener shows any minimal opening hand (which this one certainly is by anyone's standards), then what is 4♠ by opener over responder's Jacoby 2NT? Thanks!

[Fluffy]

I might open 1♦ but that's not what you are lookig for

if I opened 1♠ it would go:

1♠-2NT
4♦-4♠

[ralph23]

Fluffy, on Aug 1 2007, 11:51 AM, said:

I might open 1♦ but that's not what you are lookig for

if I opened 1♠ it would go:

1♠-2NT
4♦-4♠

So you would show your 5-card side suit, even with a dead minimum opener, yes?

[Fluffy]

I don't think it is dead minimum any more, partner has 4 spades so makes me worry little ot my trumps. My side cards are solid.

Still its minimum, bidding 4♠ its close, but I went for the agressive one to see it I reached unsafe level.

But north has no possible bid after 4♦ except 4♠.

[ralph23]

Fluffy, on Aug 1 2007, 12:12 PM, said:

I don't think it is dead minimum any more, partner has 4 spades so makes me worry little ot my trumps. My side cards are solid.

Still its minimum, bidding 4♠ its close, but I went for the agressive one to see it I reached unsafe level.

But north has no possible bid after 4♦ except 4♠.

So you DO always rebid 4♠ with a dead minimum opening hand, if you are the opener, and partner bids Jac 2NT, is that right?

But, you just think this hand is "too good" to be classified as a "dead minimum"? So therefore you don't rebid 4♠ on this one, as that bid would under-state the quality of your hand.... Is that right?

I'm just trying to understand your position because there are so many different ways that people apparently play Jac 2nt...


NB -- It doesn't really matter what North does over 4♦ as we're talking now about the merits of the 4♦ bid versus just bidding 4♠ by opener. You can't as the opener know what responder has, except he has a good hand and spades.

[Fluffy]

yes that's what I mean, not too low.

With a partner I play 3♠ as minimum since 2NT is not GF, then I might bid 4♠ wich shows a hand who doesn't wanna miss game if partner is not minimum but its not interested in slam.

[awm]

Suspect Elianna and I would bid either:

1♠ - 2nt(bad limit or GF) - 3♠ (NF no shortage to show) - 4♠ - Pass

1♠ - 2nt(bad limit or GF) - 4♠ (bad hand but extra shape) - Pass

Pass - 1♥ - 1♠ - 2♠ - 4♠

One of the problems with the standard Jacoby structure is that it's hard for opener to distinguish minimum and maximum hands when unbalanced. Another problem is that minimum hands are supposed to bid 4♠, making it hard for a strong responder to explore.

In any case, if I opened the south hand (borderline in my style), I would be trying to put on the brakes after partner's Jacoby bid. The bad trumps are definitely a danger sign. I can't really imagine Fluffy's sequence where opener rebids 4♦ (showing a 5-5) and responder then signs off -- the spade honors and the ♦K are both huge in this auction, and it's not obvious to me that opener must bid on over a 4♠ signoff with Axxxx x AQxxx Ax (for example) as even 5♠ is risky opposite Kxxx AQx xxx KQx (for example, and this is not even a minimum hand) whereas slam is excellent opposite responder's real cards.

[ralph23]

Fluffy, on Aug 1 2007, 01:33 PM, said:

yes that's what I mean, not too low.

With a partner I play 3♠ as minimum since 2NT is not GF, then I might bid 4♠ wich shows a hand who doesn't wanna miss game if partner is not minimum but its not interested in slam.

Well, another vote (I think that now makes 2) that J2nt by responder isn't even a game forcing bid !

Well..... I confess that this is not what I was expecting !! In fact I've never heard of it being less than GF, so shows how much I know.... maybe we're too provincial in the South....

[ArtK78]

If the 2NT bid is not game forcing, then it is not Jacoby 2NT. By definition, Jacoby 2NT is a game forcing raise.

Personally, if my partner opened 1S on the South hand (which is far from clear), I would respond 2H and then 4S - a minimum game forcing spade raise with a heart suit. Why would I want to take control of the hand when I don't know how high to go? I have no first round control and no extras. Give partner useful information and let him decide how much to bid.

[neilkaz]

ralph23, on Aug 1 2007, 01:41 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 1 2007, 01:33 PM, said:

yes that's what I mean, not too low.

With a partner I play 3♠ as minimum since 2NT is not GF, then I might bid 4♠ wich shows a hand who doesn't wanna miss game if partner is not minimum but its not interested in slam.

Well, another vote (I think that now makes 2) that J2nt by responder isn't even a game forcing bid !

Well..... I confess that this is not what I was expecting !! In fact I've never heard of it being less than GF, so shows how much I know.... maybe we're too provincial in the South....

Jacoby 2NT Plus..ie like Jordon 2NT over a take out double where 2NT shows a limit raise or better. This allows a jump to 3M to be preemptive and can save space since it takes up less bidding room than jumping to 3M to show a limit raise.

http://www.bridgematters.com/jplus.htm

http://inquiry2over1.blogspot.com/2005/07/...-or-opener.html

[whereagles]

1♠ 2♥
2♠ 3♠
3NT 4♠

2♥ = I don't like J2NT on a hand like this, with a decent side suit
2♠ = if you play that 3♦ shows extras, then you must bid 2♠
3NT = frivolous, no slam interest

[Robert]

Hi everyone

I play 2NT* as 10+ with 4 trumps or some GF.

I also play 1M-2M as 3 trumps with 10-11 dummy points in my Big Club method.

This Aceless semi balanced hand might very well bid 1S-4S*=a shapely weak hand up to 13-14HCP opposite a limited 1S bid. Mekcwell picked up +800 when someone guessed wrong at the five level.

Regards,
Robert

[neilkaz]

Playing the "standard SAYC (gag )" responses to J2N it is difficult for this hand to stop short of a slam try, but I'd like to think the bidding at my table would go:

1♠ off course I open this

2NT prefering this to 2♥ with a ratty suit and strong 4 card support

4♦ a very fine 5 card suit with two of the top 3 honors and chances for it to produce extra tricks for slam

4♥ I like my KJ in ♦ but really am still minimum but with show PD my control and note that he can ruff my ♥ losers in a dummy reversal. (However, this hand is min and 4♠ is OK, but the KJ in ♦ may be just what we need for slam)

4♠ by opener ..in spite of the 4♥ Q bid, opener's hand is not much more than min for it's preceeding bidding and lacks a ♣ control.

Pass..by responser lacking a ♣ control and being quite min for for it previous bidding.

Still I fear that somewhat along the line opener or responder will get excited and make a fatal slam try. Bidding 3♣ after J2N with all mins makes lots of sense.

As for the direct jump to 4♠ that should be a bare or sub min opener like ♠AJ9xx♥Kxx,♦Kx,xxx

[hrothgar]

I'd also pass the 5=1=5=2 hand. I don't think this is worth an opening bid playing 2/1 GF.

[han]

My auction: 1S-2NT-3C-4S. 2NT is invitational or better with at least 4-card support, 3C shows any minimum, 4S is obvious.

[mike777]

ralph23, on Aug 1 2007, 10:29 AM, said:

♣♦♥♠

Scoring: IMP

A hand from BBO....

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Assuming you are NS and you play 2/1 and Jacoby 2nt (your favorite version thereof), how do you bid this hand ?

1s=2nt(bergen version)(btw this is just about a dead minimum for 2nt)
3s!=3nt!
4H!=4s
p

1s=easy opener, not close
3s=minimum(less than decent), stiff somewhere
3nt=where?
4h=stiff heart.
signoff.

Also partner may just rebid 4s over our 3s minimum showing hand.

[han]

ralph23, on Aug 1 2007, 11:10 AM, said:

cherdano, on Aug 1 2007, 10:58 AM, said:

1S 2N (4S, inv+) 3C (any min) 4S

That's very interesting. So many people have different methods.

1. So, you don't play J2N as a game-forcing raise, but only as inv+ ? I admit to never having heard of that.

2. If 3♣ by opener shows any minimal opening hand (which this one certainly is by anyone's standards), then what is 4♠ by opener over responder's Jacoby 2NT? Thanks!

1. Yes, sorry you haven't heard of it before but don't panic, you can still be saved.

2. We haven't defined 4S.